Religious Symbols: Just for looks?

[Phaze]

As officially stated, the religious symbols found in Eva were simply there to serve as a source of intrigue, but should we really go as far as to say, religion had no influence on Evangelion at all?

Perhaps it's just me, but religion in Evangelion seems to have influence beyond mere appearances. Plenty of the themes, choice of words, and character roles reflect that of various tellings of The Bible and other religious mythology. I would daresay Gainax may have been inspired by the obviously dubious amounts of research conducted. This is actually one of my favorite aspects of Eva, because it adds to the overall atmosphere of the show, aside from forwarding the plot.

Can anyone else recognize this?

[Gilgamesh]

I think that is mainly a plot device conceived to spur the story forward. In most cases it is superficial, although in some it seems to reinforce the apocalyptic themes of the series. In all cases, there is no real connection to religion.

The religious symbolism of Evangelion has a powerful aesthetic appeal to it, but even where it does have some meaning, it has little relevance to the characters themselves, and only serves to flesh out the story that the characters are structured around.

The only two religious symbols in Evangelion that have any meaning attached to the characters are the Lance of Longinus and the Tree of Sephiroth. The Lance of Longinus especially. Just as the true Lance of Longinus was used to confirm Christ's death, it seems the Lance in End of Evangelion is used to confirm the death of Shinji's soul/ego after all that has happened to him. The Tree of Sephiroth hints at the creation of a new world.

That said, the crosses are only used to strengthen the angelic theme of the angels and have no meaning beyond that.

[Phaze]

Well, you managed to flesh out exactly what I stated about religious symbols forwarding the plot, and adding to the overall atmosphere, but perhaps I phrased my opinion improperly.

From my own perception on what has happened in Evangelion, it seems to me, that from all the research that presumably took place when Gainax was taking the time to add religious parrallels to their work, they, perhaps on a subconscious level, incorporated many events in this series that could end up interpreted as the often contradicting relations between different philosophies and different religions, layers a bit more sublime than what outwardly seems to be happening. Of course, I have nothing to back up my opinion, it moreover resulted form an overall feel I got after freshly viewing Evangelion.

So is there any religious truth to Evangelion? The answer may be a bit closer to "yes" than outwardly seen. Although no human could ever come close to a religious "truth," Evangelion seems to express several thoughts of man trying to reach "truth."

[Dave]

Evangelion has lot's of religious meaning. Tons of it. That's been my belief ever since I first saw the show, and it still is. Even the crosses have more meaning than just "Look! A creepy religious symbol rarely seen in Japan!" GAINAX didn't just pull biblical names out of a hat and stick them in Eva, nor did they simply chuck them for the sole purpose of making it look cool (I will admit that some of what they did was because of this reason, but most was not). Do people really believe they chose to name humanity's creator Lilith because it sounds cool to those who have never actually read stories about her? No one should be so naive! The religious references, name drops, symbols, and ideas throughout Evangelion directly affect the story. IT HAS RELIGIOUS CONTENT!

[Gilgamesh]

I think that is mainly a plot device conceived to spur the story forward. In most cases it is superficial, although in some it seems to reinforce the apocalyptic themes of the series. In all cases, there is no real connection to religion.

The religious symbolism of Evangelion has a powerful aesthetic appeal to it, but even where it does have some meaning, it has little relevance to the characters themselves, and only serves to flesh out the story that the characters are structured around.

The only two religious symbols in Evangelion that have any meaning attached to the characters are the Lance of Longinus and the Tree of Sephiroth. The Lance of Longinus especially. Just as the true Lance of Longinus was used to confirm Christ's death, it seems the Lance in End of Evangelion is used to confirm the death of Shinji's soul/ego after all that has happened to him. The Tree of Sephiroth hints at the creation of a new world.

That said, the crosses are only used to strengthen the angelic theme of the angels and have no meaning beyond that.

Well, you managed to flesh out exactly what I stated about religious symbols forwarding the plot, and adding to the overall atmosphere, but perhaps I phrased my opinion improperly.

From my own perception on what has happened in Evangelion, it seems to me, that from all the research that presumably took place when Gainax was taking the time to add religious parrallels to their work, they, perhaps on a subconscious level, incorporated many events in this series that could end up interpreted as the often contradicting relations between different philosophies and different religions, layers a bit more sublime than what outwardly seems to be happening. Of course, I have nothing to back up my opinion, it moreover resulted form an overall feel I got after freshly viewing Evangelion.

So is there any religious truth to Evangelion? The answer may be a bit closer to "yes" than outwardly seen. Although no human could ever come close to a religious "truth," Evangelion seems to express several thoughts of man trying to reach "truth."

Well, I think that it is safe to say that Evangelion can not be used as a proselytizing tool to convert people to any particular religion. In that sense, it does not contain religious truth. The overall message of the series is ultimately atheistic: there is no such thing as destiny, the individual controls his happiness and future. That is a philosophy in and of itself but it is not necessarily religious.

Here is a thought for us all, though. Perhaps the superficiality of the majority of the religious symbolism is meaningful in itself? Shinji is surrounded by religious symbols on all sides that would seem to suggest that he is not in control of his life and that fate decides what will happen to him, but in the end we see that he rejects Instrumentality; he rejects all of the religious symbolism and instead decides that he controls his own destiny.

That is about as far as I think Evangelion goes into religious truth.

[The Eva Monkey]

Gainax's members' statements that the religious symbolism had no implication does not mean that the religious ideas were just thrown in there.

Yes, Anno and company did do a good bit of research into the substance of Eva. But what they mean is that it could have been anything. It could have been Greek mythology. It very well may have worked all the same. The religious ideas merely served as a vehicle for Anno's catharsis. The show may not have been the same with another form of mythology, but at the core, it would still have been the same. It would still have served the same purpose artistically and conceptually.

Also, when they say it has no implication, they also mean that the Angels/Apostles are not actually Angels/Apostles in that world. They simply are defined as such. There is no God in that world, and so on and so forth.

The religious substance could have been anything. And you shouldn't read too much into the religious substance. Find out what the Lilith in the bible and the jewish texts is, but realize that the Lilith in the religious texts, and the Lilith in Eva are not the same. The religious mythos can help you understand the creative substance, but not so much the plot and meaning of the show.

[sadsadshinji]

was lillith ever explicitly mentioned in the bible?
and i feel that the religious symbolism kind of serves to bind it together a bit more...

[Dave]

It could have been Greek mythology. It very well may have worked all the same. The religious ideas merely served as a vehicle for Anno's catharsis. The show may not have been the same with another form of mythology, but at the core, it would still have been the same. It would still have served the same purpose artistically and conceptually.

I strongly disagree. Take away the Judeo-Christian roots that Evangelion contains and it's very core becomes something entirely different. Evangelion is not preaching Catholocism, it is expounding upon it. It takes the baseline history of the world as portrayed in the bible, alters it in an attempt to make it more right, and then comes to it's own conclusions about the fate of man and the nature of our existence. That IS religious content.

[MAGI]

Think of Evangelion as their interpretation and spin-off of religion. They are like creating their own. It does not conform exactly to what it was based off, but is true as a religion. And everyone's interpretation of religion is different, but not void. There are many religions that contradict each other here and there, so Evangelion is like a religion of its own.

To say that religion is superficial as a part of Evangelion is like saying that to have a strawberry sponge-cake with strawberry icing is the same as a sponge-cake without the strawberry icing. (Okay, I'm no cake expert.) The reason why it's a strawberry sponge-cake is because of the icing. It defines what type of cake it is. Evangelion has the characters, and so forth, but religion is one major aspect that makes up what it is.
Sure, it may be a random religion chosen for the sake of individuality, but that doesn't mean Evangelion's take on religion is superficial. It's an intergral part of the story.

Take away the religion, and you've got a plain sponge-cake, like everything else.

[The Eva Monkey]

It could have been Greek mythology. It very well may have worked all the same. The religious ideas merely served as a vehicle for Anno's catharsis. The show may not have been the same with another form of mythology, but at the core, it would still have been the same. It would still have served the same purpose artistically and conceptually.

I strongly disagree. Take away the Judeo-Christian roots that Evangelion contains and it's very core becomes something entirely different.

The "core" of the show as I refer to it has absolutely nothing to do with Angels, Evas, or relgion.

Evangelion has the characters, and so forth, but religion is one major aspect that makes up what it is.

This is true, the religion is a predominate component on Eva, and is part of what made it so successful, but the religion is to me somewhere outside of the "core".

They say, "To live is to change." I started this production with the wish that once the production complete, the world, and the heroes would change. That was my "true" desire. I tried to include everything of myself in Neon Genesis Evangelion-myself, a broken man who could do nothing for four years. A man who ran away for four years, one who was simply not dead. Then one thought. "You can't run away," came to me, and I restarted this production. It is a production where my only thought was to burn my feelings into film.

Evangelion is a work of expressionistic art. That is the foremost reason (to me) why it is so successful. It is a work in which the director sought out to completely ingrain his experience into the work. And in doing so, he connected us to him emotionally. The religious substance did not do that. The characters did. Their depth, emotion, and compelling nature are what are at the "core" of Eva. Granted, the plot DID aid in this, it accentuated it, and nurtured it, but it was simply a device for bringing out aspects of the character.

And if I could make a comparison, you could put someone in a sports car (judeo-christian mythos) and take that person somewhere, but you could put that same person in a used sedan (some other religious mythos) and that person would still get to their destination. They wouldn't travel in style in the sedan, but they would still get there. The Judeo-Christian mythos and iconography are integral to what Eva is, but peel that off, and at the center, it really just is a show about a bunch of characters. That is what they (and I as well) mean when we say that the religious substance is unimportant. It could have been anything, it just turned out to be Judeo-Christian.

[Dave]

The "sports-car" we are given is the only car in existence that will take us to our destination. You can not substitute "anything" in place of Evangelion's Judeo-Christian symbolism/idealeogy and still have the same basic themes. Whether intentional or not, GAINAX and Anno chose to use many, many idea's and symbols from this religion and the show itself is what it is because of that decision. The characters are what truly shine yes, but without the scale of the plot, it would be impossible to see what they truly are and the true problems they must overcome.

[TheUserName]

NGE is an analysis of the social isolation of individuals akin to that of contempory Japanese society. Instrumentality fundamentally being linked and contrasted to the deep rooted beleif of everything being 'one collective power' in Japanese culture, as opposed to say, the individualism which is unique to American culture.

The biblical imagery was just something to make the show unique in it's presentation, more so to the Japanese viewers of whom christianity is a religion that there society is more or less alien to.

[Reichu]

The only two religious symbols in Evangelion that have any meaning attached to the characters are the Lance of Longinus and the Tree of Sephiroth. The Lance of Longinus especially. Just as the true Lance of Longinus was used to confirm Christ's death, it seems the Lance in End of Evangelion is used to confirm the death of Shinji's soul/ego after all that has happened to him. The Tree of Sephiroth hints at the creation of a new world.

I'm not quite sure where your interpretation of the Spear (not Lance, BTW -- NGE specifically choses to call it a Spear) is coming from... From a technical standpoint, the Spear in NGE serves a purpose that has absolutely nothing to do with its namesake.

The Tree of Life symbolism is a bit more blatant, IMO, and involves a bit more than the mere "creation of a new world". Thematically, NGE utilizes both the Sephirotic Tree of Life and the Biblical one. I don't really feel like getting further into it, though, being as this is one of the things I need to research more thoroughly for the commentary...

Regarding Lilith, Monkey, she really isn't mentioned in the Bible. There's one bit in Isaiah that might allude to her incarnation as a monster of the night, which is what she was originally, before the author of The Alphabet of Ben Sira transformed her into Adam's defiant first wife and spawned the non-rabbinic Judaic legend we are familiar with.

Traditionally, Lilith has absolutely nothing to do with the genesis of humanity. She actually birthed hundreds of demon-children every day, none other than the Lilim. I have heard that the role-reversal we see in NGE -- making Adam the progenitor of Angels, and Lilith the progenitor of humanity -- has been used in literature before, even some sci-fi, but I can't remember any examples off-hand.

[Cogboy]

Just a couple of questions about the spear/lance.

in the english dub it is refered to as the lance. i'm guessing that spear is the literal translation from the Japanese original?

From a technical standpoint, the Spear in NGE serves a purpose that has absolutely nothing to do with its namesake.

you mean as in not being used to confirm death? as it was used to impale a crucified body.

[Reichu]

in the english dub it is refered to as the lance. i'm guessing that spear is the literal translation from the Japanese original?

The translation "Spear" is used on a data screen in EoE and can thus be considered the "official" translation, even though "Lance of Longinus" sounds sexier. Here is a thread about why "spear" is more accurate considering the type of weapon NGE's Longinus no yari is.

you mean as in not being used to confirm death? as it was used to impale a crucified body.

I hope you are not saying the Spear in NGE was used to "impale a crucified body", because it most certainly was not... The harpies used their copy Spears to give EVA-01 stigmata (in the wrong location, no less...), withdrew, and later the real Spear merges with EVA-01 (apparently something Yui WANTED to have happen).

[Cogboy]

I hope you are not saying the Spear in NGE was used to "impale a crucified body", because it most certainly was not... The harpies used their copy Spears to give EVA-01 stigmata (in the wrong location, no less...), withdrew, and later the real Spear merges with EVA-01 (apparently something Yui WANTED to have happen).

It looked close enough for me. :?
I havn't seen it in a while though, so i think i'll go and watch it again. :)

[Olin of Xephon]

Regardless of GAINAX's intentions to include religious symbolism as something "cool" or something with a deeper meaning, it was put in there, and takes on a life of it's own.

I agree Evangelion has a lot of Relious Symbolism in it, but not nessacarily because it wants to.

I'm going to use Alice in Wonderland as a illustration.
While on the surface it seems like a simple flight of fancy for children, further investigation could lead one to belive there are a lot of drug refferences in it, esspecially how Alice eats the mushroom and goes up high before eating againg and (coming back down) and growing small again.

Now it doesn't matter what Lewis Carol originally intended when he wrote Alice in Wonderland, a drug reference can be percived, and nothing he says can change that one can be seen.

In the same way, no matter what GAINAX tried to do with religion, it is whithin Evangelion and can be analyzed from that spiritual viewpoint because it's just plain asking for it.

It doesn't matter if Anno says "we put the cross there because it looked cool" it still retains meaning due to the nature of that Sigul.

Wether or not they wanted it in there, there is a LOT of religous symbolism in Evangelion, you can't get around it.

[Trotsky]

I think religion plays a huge role and Anno is a liar. And you can tell by the way he says it. He said if he knew Evangelion was going to have a euro/us release he would have not placed the judeo/xtian stuff in. Sounds like a PR cleanup of the most blasphmous series ever made. And its so INCREDIBLEY blasphemous that it could have only been that way on purpose. The idea that man could fight back against god and the apocolypes-wow! If Eva was shown in American theaters conservatives would burn them all down. And that stuff about christianity being unknown in Japan isn't even true. There is a large catholic population there. I don't by the whole innocent thing. Eva is purposeful attack on western beliefs that ends with an eastern flair (we are all one). Its great that way.

[The Eva Monkey]

And that stuff about christianity being unknown in Japan isn't even true. There is a large catholic population there.

Yeah, they're called immigrants.

While there may be a few isolated pockets of native Japanese that are Christian, and may seem considerable, the percentage on a whole is insignifcant compared to the whole.

The Japanese are not a religious people per se, moreso spiritual than anything else. There are those with a great deal of devotion to the Shinto and Buddhist traditions, but on a whole, the Japanese people are not terribly religious. In fact, I the notion that the only truly religious (by our definition anyways) Japanese are those that do indeed perscribe to Christian beliefs. Monotheistic doctrines are quite demanding and compelling compared to those of shintoism and buddhism, which are very loosely defined.

My understanding of religion in Japan however may be a bit flawed, I can only go by what I've read and learned in college thus far.

[Trotsky]

I was as shocked as you, man. But the Japanese half of my friend's family is catholic and he says there are plenty like them, so x-tianity is not exactly the alien theology Anno makes it out to be. The religious stuff all makes way to much sense to just be blown off. Its all PR for nutty americans who hate queers.