Instrumentality = Safeguard by FAR?

[Sachi]

Instrumentaility = LOOPHOLE in ADO and Lilin existence

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Of course, I'm surprised the great marauder of logic AEF isn't here agreeing with me that, logically, God-beings shouldn't put themselves in a situation where they should ever have to worry about two of their creations merging and causing a ruckus.

A line from Jurassic Park comes to mind, your scientists were so preoccupied with weather or not they could that they didn't bother to stop and think about weather or not they should. Logical thought isn't always part of the equassion. They assumed the Spears would be enough to prevent it from happening just like InGen assumed their bioengineering would be enough to control the dinosaurs. They also assumed no 2 Seeds would land on the same planet. As an old friend of mine said, assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups.

[Eva Yojimbo]

I think BobBQ meant "How do we know that the FAR exist on a higher plane of existence than us?"

We don't know. We don't know much about them except they made the Seeds.

If God didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, why'd he put it right in the Garden of Eden where they could pluck a fruit at any time?

Well, "it was a test" is one interpretation. I'm sure there are others. Reminds me of:

Angels on the sideline,
Puzzled and amused.
Why did Father give these humans free will?
Now they're all confused.

Don't these talking monkeys know that
Eden has enough to go around?
Plenty in this holy garden, silly monkeys,
Where there's one you're bound to divide it.
Right in two.

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason.
And this is what they choose.
And this is what they choose...

Monkey killing monkey killing monkey
Over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys give them thumbs,
They forge a blade,
And where there's one
they're bound to divide it,
Right in two

I suppose their deeds would suffice for "kami" status.

The answer is rather easy but the answer to the answer isn't as much in that it goes back to defining the nature of God-status. If man defines itself through creations and then creates God, is it not God? Meh, we won't get off on a philosophical tangent here.

A line from Jurassic Park comes to mind, your scientists were so preoccupied with weather or not they could that they didn't bother to stop and think about weather or not they should.

Good point. Jurassic Park is showing up a lot in this thread!

[Reichu]

A line from Jurassic Park comes to mind, your scientists were so preoccupied with weather or not they could that they didn't bother to stop and think about weather or not they should.

Speaking of weather, did you know that I caused a hurricane on the opposite side of the world by waving somebody goodbye?

They assumed the Spears would be enough to prevent it from happening just like InGen assumed their bioengineering would be enough to control the dinosaurs.

But Spears with uber-power and (supposedly) wills sure beat the crap out of the inability to synthesize lysine, don't they?

We don't know much about them except they made the Seeds.

They were a humanoid species and are described as a "race". They have a written language. They have really cool technology. They probably went around naked, too.

Well, "it was a test" is one interpretation.

Parable, and all......

If man defines itself through creations and then creates God, is it not God?

"I thought I heard God speak to me... and then I realized I was just hearing myself."

[Eva Yojimbo]

They probably went around naked, too.

Naked FAR art?

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Speaking of weather, did you know that I caused a hurricane on the opposite side of the world by waving somebody goodbye?

Oh shut up.

[BobBQ]

We don't know. We don't know much about them except they made the Seeds.

Then why did you imply that they are Ascended?

[Eva Yojimbo]

Then why did you imply that they are Ascended?

Guess?

[V]

The idea that the FAR regarded a merging of Fruit of Life and Fruit of Wisdom as double-plus-ungood is explicit in the CI (it's the reason that poor Adam ended up staked by vis own Spear), and is referenced in the series: "the forbidden joining of Adam and Lilith" - forbidden by what or whom? The SDSS, would be my best guess; and the behavior of the Spear in #26' when it launches itself off the Moon and aims at Shogouki... Fuyutsuki explains "The Fruit of Life possessed by Angels, and the Fruit of Wisdom possessed by humans... Having obtained them both, EVA-01 has become like a God."

Where does 'fanwanking' (I loath that word, btw) come in here? It's all readily defensible conclusions.

Verily.

Where does 'fanwanking' (I loath that word, btw) come in here? It's all readily defensible conclusions.

The idea that you're taking an interpretable translation from the CI (lower canon material) to translate other interpretable material makes it fanwank. You're trying to determine the motives of God-beings on a higher plane of existence than us, and I don't trust the CI in some respects as far as can throw it.

The CI is Third Tier Cannon, sir, and thus counts.

They probably went around naked, too.

Naked FAR art?

How did you...develop this theory, Reichu?

[Eva Yojimbo]

The CI is Third Tier Cannon, sir, and thus counts.

But to what extent is my question. For me, you're begging for trouble anytime you go out of series to explain in-series elements, and, beyond that, I rather like the idea of us pathetic humans not having any idea of these greater beings. Now, I wouldn't mind having the SDSS published, because that WAS an in-show element. Let us in on what Seele knew. But the CI... meh.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

That would explain too many things. Like it or not vague shit is all you're gonna get.

How did you...develop this theory, Reichu?

Man creates God in his own image. It's said a few times that Eva, and thus Adam is something created in man's own image. Obviously this wasn't us so it must be the FAR they're talking about.

[Reichu]

How did you...develop this theory, Reichu?

Not really based on anything substantial so much as the idea that the Seeds of Life may in some ways be representing their dispatchers. Adam and Lilith are found naked; Rei treats naked as the default mode, and Kaworu doesn't seem to have any beefs with it either; GNR and GNK are both naked.

I rather like the idea of us pathetic humans not having any idea of these greater beings.

"Too bad!"

[Anti-Goth]

Not really based on anything substantial so much as the idea that the Seeds of Life may in some ways be representing their dispatchers. Adam and Lilith are found naked; Rei treats naked as the default mode, and Kaworu doesn't seem to have any beefs with it either; GNR and GNK are both naked.

Hold on a minute!

Could it be that GNR/GNK resemble what FAR-beings naturally look like? If that's the case, then perhaps the completion of Instrumentality would have resulted in GNR 'leaving' Earth with the collective human souls, to reunite with the FAR...

...'Childhood's End', anyone?

[Reichu]

Why would the FAR look like ghostly white versions of the Lilim? Miniature Adams seems rather more reasonable -- see e.g. the comment from Ritsuko that AEF just cited.

Based on the indirect view of Adam one gets via the Evas, too, it's clear Adam was based on a mortal antecedent. "God" or no, that's the body of an organism fashioned for eat-and-breathe living. Who would have served as the template for Adam but her creators?

[V]

Not really based on anything substantial so much as the idea that the Seeds of Life may in some ways be representing their dispatchers. Adam and Lilith are found naked; Rei treats naked as the default mode, and Kaworu doesn't seem to have any beefs with it either; GNR and GNK are both naked.

Hold on a minute!

Could it be that GNR/GNK resemble what FAR-beings naturally look like? If that's the case, then perhaps the completion of Instrumentality would have resulted in GNR 'leaving' Earth with the collective human souls, to reunite with the FAR...

...'Childhood's End', anyone?

but GNR wasn't SUPPOSED to happen. Childhood's End the point was for the humans to reach the next plane, but the FAR never intended that.

Why would the FAR look like ghostly white versions of the Lilim? Miniature Adams seems rather more reasonable -- see e.g. the comment from Ritsuko that AEF just cited.

Based on the indirect view of Adam one gets via the Evas, too, it's clear Adam was based on a mortal antecedent. "God" or no, that's the body of an organism fashioned for eat-and-breathe living. Who would have served as the template for Adam but her creators?

I also find it unlikely that the FAR looked anything like humans; Lilith-based life throughout the galaxy evolved differently and could be anything from Admiral Ackbar from Star Wars, to Klingons, etc.

I think the only stuff we could really look at is Adam and Lilith because they came directly from the FAR. That makes more sense. Nonetheless, I don't think we have any reason to assume the FAR looked like Adam or Lilith, lesser beings than themselves, etc. All we know is they were "humanoid".

The CI is Third Tier Cannon, sir, and thus counts.

But to what extent is my question. For me, you're begging for trouble anytime you go out of series to explain in-series elements, and, beyond that, I rather like the idea of us pathetic humans not having any idea of these greater beings. Now, I wouldn't mind having the SDSS published, because that WAS an in-show element. Let us in on what Seele knew. But the CI... meh.

Reichu gave me direct and clear orders regarding to trust canonicity of the Classified Information files.

Rei treats naked as the default mode

"default mode"?

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Nonetheless, I don't think we have any reason to assume the FAR looked like Adam or Lilith, lesser beings than themselves, etc.

O'rly?

Misato:
What does that mean?! Just what is an Eva?!

RITSUKO:
It is something created by man in man's own image.
I really can't describe it any other way.

And technically Adam and Lilith are FAR.

I also find it unlikely that the FAR looked anything like humans

Technically it'd be us that don't look like humans since they came first. You gotta learn to use the word "Lilim".

[Reichu]

I also find it unlikely that the FAR looked anything like humans

Are you serious? Not only are their Seeds of Life humanoid, but one gives rise (via evolutionary predestination or something) a humanoid species with a ludicrous amount in common with the humanoids coming directly out of Adam. Why would this be? I would suspect because both Angel and Lilim are variations on the FAR formula; it's a form of immortality for them.

Nonetheless, I don't think we have any reason to assume the FAR looked like Adam or Lilith, lesser beings than themselves, etc.

Adam's biological nature and Ritsuko's line about the Evas seem to have pretty straightforward implications.

"default mode"?

I sure hope you know what a default is.

And technically Adam and Lilith are FAR.

They were created by them; it's not the same thing. If you're referring to my theory about the origin of their souls -- it's a theory.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

They were created by them; it's not the same thing.

Close enough. They existed along side the FAR. Calling them artifical FAR wouldn't be totally off base.

[Anti-Goth]

Childhood's End the point was for the humans to reach the next plane, but the FAR never intended that.

That's very debatable. We don't know what long-range plans the FAR had for their 'creations'.

Though it could be that they didn't want Angel-Lilim beings competing with them. The whole 'become like God' thing probably means that.

Based on the indirect view of Adam one gets via the Evas, too, it's clear Adam was based on a mortal antecedent. "God" or no, that's the body of an organism fashioned for eat-and-breathe living. Who would have served as the template for Adam but her creators?

I think the only stuff we could really look at is Adam and Lilith because they came directly from the FAR. That makes more sense. Nonetheless, I don't think we have any reason to assume the FAR looked like Adam or Lilith, lesser beings than themselves, etc. All we know is they were "humanoid".

Humanoid implies they resembled humans, at least in external body structure. Perhaps the SoL were members of the FAR, modified for the journey through space and the landing on a distant, possibly inhospitiable planet. Obviously, Adam doesn't HAVE to eat or breathe, seeing as she had a Super Solenoid organ/engine.

Agh. I think I contradicted myself.

[Skullraper]

If I may interject, some time ago I posted a really long speculative topic which suggested the same thing as this topic. The idea being that instrumentality was engineered by the FAR to keep two opposing biospheres from coexisting on one planet. If you don’t mind a long read then I think it complements the discussion well. Even though the CI never explicitly states that instrumentality exists for that purpose there is no statement that says instrumentality has one exclusive function.

Also, it’s nice to see Arthur C. Clarke’s Firstborn showing up in discussion. I guess my really long posts left an impression after all. (stroking myself)

Anyway, I would figure the FAR would be able to assume any form they desire. If the body is shaped by the AT field and the FAR exhibit the AT field of a “god” then they should be at least as amorphous as the angels. Perhaps they retain a humanoid form as a default. It’s also possible that like the Firstborn they long ago abandoned forms of flesh and have imprinted their collective conscience onto a non corporeal medium. I find it unlikely that beings who achieve godhood could vanish by means of extinction. Unless they willed it themselves.