Why was Misato at the South Pole?

[master0rolando]

thats always been a peeve of mine... Rolando... not Roland, not Orlando...those names are fail

ROLANDO... thats win

my mistake for Gender...i need to start reading sigs...

you can tell my gender from my sig too... :twisted:

[SEELE 08]

thats always been a peeve of mine... Rolando... not Roland, not Orlando...those names are fail

ROLANDO... thats win

my mistake for Gender...i need to start reading sigs...

you can tell my gender from my sig too... :twisted:

Actually I can't you could be a lesbian.

[Reichu]

@DatDude: I've always considered it badgering and bullying. Regardless of Seele 08's intention, "You Are What You Write". That's a basic rule of thumb on the Interweb. I'm still wondering why she doesn't just let go.

This whole ordeal is a bit of a mess, and you guys really aren't helping matters. Rawinder provided a demonstration of the "overzealousness" earlier when he dragged in the whole motherload of Dr. K-related randomness at such minor provocation. I'd appreciate it if ya'll would get off my case. You, Seele 08, and Rawinder have come to embody everything that makes Reichu NOT want to work on her presentations. Please understand that.

Anyway, enough of that nonsense. If for whatever reason you want to address the OT stuff, do it by PM.

"Back on topic, bitches."

[SEELE 08]

Aw who deleted my pansy post! You can't just delete a post because you feel like it! Than again whole threads just up and disapper of late.....

[Rawinder]

@DatDude: I've always considered it badgering and bullying. Regardless of Seele 08's intention, "You Are What You Write". That's a basic rule of thumb on the Interweb. I'm still wondering why she doesn't just let go.

This whole ordeal is a bit of a mess, and you guys really aren't helping matters. Rawinder provided a demonstration of the "overzealousness" earlier when he dragged in the whole motherload of Dr. K-related randomness at such minor provocation. I'd appreciate it if ya'll would get off my case. You, Seele 08, and Rawinder have come to embody everything that makes Reichu NOT want to work on her presentations. Please understand that.

Anyway, enough of that nonsense. If for whatever reason you want to address the OT stuff, do it by PM.

"Back on topic, bitches."

But it is on topic! The thread is about why Misato was at the South Pole, and your theory about that is a part of the "Dr. K-related randomness."

If you would just actually provide evidence (and don't turn this into a semantics debate, because I already outlined earlier what I mean by "evidence"), then people wouldn't be acting "overzealous." But as it stands, all you're doing is citing baseless fanfiction to explain part of what happened prior to, and during, 2I. And it's incredibly frustrating, especially with a show like NGE, where there are already so many misconceptions (Shinji and Asuka being Adam and Eve, Naoko's soul in Eva-00, etc). If you're tired of skeptical and antagonistic behavior towards your theories about Misato's father, then make your "presentation" already.

If you want people to get off your back, then stop posting ideas and theories that you refuse to backup with actual evidence (and like I said, don't make this into a semantics debate). Until you do that, people will continue to express both skepticism and annoyance towards your Dr. Katsuragi theories, and rightfully so. The burden of proof lies with you, and if you're just going to ignore that, then people aren't going to take you seriously anymore.

[Ornette]

What I don't get is, I asked for what people thought, Reichu posted an obviously made up script that mirrors the Fuyutsuki/Yui lines concerning Shinji being at Nerv, then explains the parallel in the next sentence. Her Dr K stuff was never even brought up until post 46514 by Rawinder.

Am I missing something?

Oh yes, topic...

Does anyone think Misato spending all that time in isolation is relevant?

[Rawinder]

What I don't get is, I asked for what people thought, Reichu posted an obviously made up script that mirrors the Fuyutsuki/Yui lines concerning Shinji being at Nerv, then explains the parallel in the next sentence. Her Dr K stuff was never even brought up until post 46514 by Rawinder.

Except her script was comprised of "Dr K stuff." I questioned her post, which was one of her many theories about Dr. Katsuragi. By refuting her idea, I was, by extension, doing the same to all of her other ideas about "Akira."

Does anyone think Misato spending all that time in isolation is relevant?

I can't think of anything, other than Ritsuko's observation that Misato spending five years as a mute would explain her habit of talking a lot.

I've got a similar question: did the official UN team sent in 2002 (which Gendo and Fuyutsuki joined) recover Misato from the South Pole? Wwas she just floating around in her 'escape tube' for two years before they found her? Or had they recovered earlier and, for some reason, brought her back to the South Pole in 2002?

[BobBQ]

I don't think Misato could have survived in an escape pod for that long.

Seems to me that they brought her along in case she snapped out of it and told them something useful, which apparently didn't happen.

[master0rolando]

you dont supposed there was any kind of food in that pod do you...

i imagine that after Antartica melted...people started to get curious...you know?...and some team or whatever just saw her floating along

[The Eva Monkey]

Dear Bitches,

Please play nice and refrain from insulting people regardless of how outlandish or aggravating their thoughts on Evangelion might be.

Sincerely,

Aaron Clark

[Reichu]

i imagine that after Antartica melted...people started to get curious...you know?...and some team or whatever just saw her floating along

Seele might have picked her up when they collected Adam and Tabris' eggs.

Regarding the silly things: My initial post was directed at Ornette, and he interpreted it as I had intended. Rawinder ran with it and blew it totally out of proportions. Serious communication problems here...

Anyway. The question from earlier about Misato being present for the CE.
Predictably, the possibility first occurred to me because of this guy:



...and how NGE is structured to operate heavily on 'parallelism', for lack of a better word. There are massive sets of correlations everywhere, and one way to begin approaching the problem of "gaps in the data" is to look at what IS available and see if it forms some kind of pattern. A combination of cognition and intuition can produce potential means of 'filling in the gaps', and their plausibility can be tested from there.

Just to illustrate, a list that attempts to pull together various observations (most of which is "blatantly obvious" stuff) from the general turf we're probing:

• Yui Ikari worked under Gehirn as a genetic engineer and is apparently the mastermind behind Project E's inception.
  
  
• Yui acts as the test subject in a 'Contact Experiment' with EVA-01 and brings her son, Shinji, to the site within the bowels of Gehirn. Her reason: "I want my child to see the bright future." She dies in an "irregular accident" (in actuality, of her own free will) and becomes the soul of the Eva. Shinji remembers her going with a smile.
  
  
• Misato was with the Katsuragi Investigation Team at the South Pole UN Base. The reason is unknown. She was the sole survivor, and remained a traumatized mute for years after her rescue.
  
  
• Dr. Katsuragi, apparently an energy researcher, is the mastermind behind the controversial Super Solenoid Theory. He led the Seele-funded expedition to Antarctica that (evidently) discovered the White Moon, exhumated Adam and the Spear of Longinus, and began an investigation into the former's so-called "S2 Engine".
  
  
• The investigation team eventually performed a "Contact Experiment with (a/the) donor", which involved Lilim genes 'diving and physically fusing' into Adam. The exact nature of this CE, the identity of the donor, and the degree of similarity to the Eva CEs can only be speculated upon. The experiment triggered the events culminating with Second Impact. The entire team, with the exception of Katsuragi's daughter, was completely wiped out.
  
  
• It could be said that Dr. Katsuragi lost his life as a consequence of a Contact Experiment. Whether or not he was the actual donor (equivalent to the "test subject" of later CEs) cannot be determined with certainty.
  
  
• Kyoko, who acted as a test subject like Yui, eventually lost her life as a result of her own direct participation in a CE.
  
  
• Dr. K, Yui, and Kyoko are all parents of main characters and served, and died, under Seele as scientists. So is Naoko, but...
  
  
• ...Shinji, Misato, and Asuka form a "family" that doesn't include Ritsuko.
  
  
• Shinji and Misato act as counterpart characters on a certain level.
  
  
• As an eventual consequence of Yui's CE with EVA-01 (who was connected to Lilith at the time), "Rei" – a Yui-shaped vessel containing Lilith's soul – was produced.
  
  
• The fusion of Lilim genes into Adam produced a Lilim-shaped offspring, Tabris, into which Adam's soul was later salvaged.
  

And so on. The data sorts itself out rather organically, IMO.

And yes: The rather controversial idea that Dr. K was the donor has its origins in thought processes as simplistic as these. Separate patterns converge and, without any further analysis, he emerges intuitively as a potential option for filling in one of the blanks. The basic concept really doesn't go any deeper than that.

But that's just a random FYI. Onward!

Something that piqued my curiosity: In episode #15, when Kaji shows Misato "Adam", she has a flashback of the Giant of Light.


Incidentally, Misato wasn't actually conscious to see this particular cut from #12 happen. (Full scene.) Oh, the perils of recyclage!

After she wakes up, there is no indication that she's seeing something big, glowy, and weird before Dad shuts the hatch. She simply turns to him and locks eyes.


(click for full)

So... when DID she see Adam?

Now to trot through some random observations.

One odd detail is that Adam, apparently, didn't begin to walk until some 37 minutes after things started going down the shitter. Wouldn't that mean that she was restricted to the site of the CE for all that time?

Also, before they even announce the walking, the camera lingers on this:



A certain detail from this is, ironically, easier to see in the fuzzed-out #21' version:


(click for bigger)

This appears to be the palm side of somebody's left-hand glove. What little we can glimpse of its other side is torn and bloody, and the end of the thumb is missing..

So, who's the owner? There's always the usual suspect...



...who, continuity errors aside, has the arrows pointing to him.

All that means, on the surface, is that, prior to 0:59:49, Dr. K had already split and made it at least this far. "Sayonara, suckers. Adam is your problem, Misato is mine."

After the initial explosion and the formation of the pretty dome over the South Pole, he makes the final leg of the journey to the escape capsule, delivers Misato to 'safety', and collapses.

Misato tells us...

Misato:
But he sacrificed himself to save my life at the end.
Back during the Second Impact.
Then, I didn't know whether I hated him or loved him.

What's this "sacrifice" that she speaks of? I wouldn't say it's the fact that he gave her the escape capsule at his expense – I mean, for all Misato knew, there could have been more than one. And by that point, he was already dead, really. No, it had to be something else...

Despite the fact that she snoozed through an uncertain amount of the festivities, Misato got off pretty light: "I survived Second Impact, and all I got was this lousy scar!" (J/K) Dad, on the other hand, is bleeding quite abundantly through his parka (meaning he got messed up a bit earlier, when in a more sheltered place, I'd guess). So what happened? My best guess is that the sacrifice entailed an Operation Human Shield.

Finally, within all reason Dr. Katsuragi was present at the CE himself. Being the "Katsuragi" of the "Katsuragi Investigation Team" and the S2 Master, and all.

When I considered all of these factors, the simplest scenario seemed to be...

• Misato was present at the CE and had seen Adam on-site, including the transition to Giant of Light
  
• The Doc bailed fast and got Misato out of there
  
• At some point, before they reached "adequate cold", the "human sacrifice" occurred. Misato was knocked out, and Dr. K carried her and drudged on against death
  
• He equipped them with wintry gear and entered harsher climes.
  
• He got his glove caught and ripped off on that metal fence
  
• BIG EXPLOSION
  
• Somehow, Dr. K was able to escape the fate of his crispy, dismembered colleagues and get Misato to the capsule JUST ... IN ... TIME.

I think that's it.

[master0rolando]

you know Reichu...from expirience of being rushed to a hospital with critical wounds i think its more likely that she wasnt knocked out...just in a daze like i was

When your in that kinda state and can see you own blood around...you kinda slowly open your eyes and look to the side...then you close em...then you slowly open em and look to another side...you drift...you know...i something like a drop of blood had hit my face i wouldve opened my eyes to see...you drift back and forth...but your not unconcious...your just kinda ignoring it...but you still see stuff and open your eyes and close em back and forth...the point is...your kinda asleep back and forth...but ya know whats going on...

also...your thing with "the sacrifice" is just too far...

i think your making WAY too many assumptions there...

She says "he sacrificed himself"...theres no way to misinterpret that...

it couldve been a case of only one escape pod...or it couldve been that he couldve taken the brunt of a blast...since he was the lead scientist...he probly had people doing all the labor for him...and was sitting in a lab...

i just think your getting way ahead of yourself and your support is quite vague this time around

[Reichu]

She says "he sacrificed himself"...theres no way to misinterpret that...

it couldve been a case of only one escape pod...or it couldve been that he couldve taken the brunt of a blast...since he was the lead scientist...he probly had people doing all the labor for him...and was sitting in a lab...

By "Operation Human Shield", I did actually mean that he "took the brunt of a blast" and protected Misato with his body, at his own expense. Based on what little we're given, how is this so unreasonable?

Incidentally, Misato herself is mortally wounded by acting as a "human shield" and taking a bullet for Shinji while ushering him to 'safety'. (What happens from there also parallels the Misato/Dr. K situation @2I in a number of ways.)

[master0rolando]

thats not unreasonable...i thought you meant some kinda actual operation...human sheild makes plenty of sense...

the humor in your statement didnt get through to me... :roll:

but he probly took a blast... i think the pod thing is also true

[Reichu]

human sheild makes plenty of sense... the humor in your statement didnt get through to me... :roll:

It's metaphoric. ;) (But I think I picked up the term from "South Park: The Movie", where it was used in the most tasteless context possible.)

i think the pod thing is also true

There are actually multiple capsules, but most of them don't look too happy.



In any case, Misato wouldn't have had any way of knowing that. And, like I said, Dad was dead anyway; he was fux0red even if there was another operable capsule. Rather conveniently, he collapses almost immediately after he completes his task (allowing for a brief moment of reflection). Like Boromir, if you have the willpower, you can delay the inevitable, but the Grim Reaper has to come SOMEtime...

Also, I made a little edit to my post above.

[Rawinder]

Regarding the silly things: My initial post was directed at Ornette, and he interpreted it as I had intended. Rawinder ran with it and blew it totally out of proportions. Serious communication problems here...

All I wanted was proof of why you believe in your various theories about Dr. Katsuragi, but you've all done so far is shown that you aren't capable of supporting your own pet theories.

[*]Dr. Katsuragi, apparently an energy researcher, is the mastermind behind the controversial Super Solenoid Theory. He led the Seele-funded expedition to Antarctica that (evidently) discovered the White Moon, exhumated Adam and the Spear of Longinus, and began an investigation into her so-called "S2 Engine".

Her?

And yes: The rather controversial idea that Dr. K was the donor has its origins in thought processes as simplistic as these. Separate patterns converge and, without any further analysis, he emerges intuitively as a potential option for filling in one of the blanks. The basic concept really doesn't go any deeper than that.

Except that Dr. Katsuragi was an energy researcher. Why would he be participating (i.e. donating his genes) for the CE? Sure, he would definitely observe, especially if the CE was a test for the S2 theory (as I expect). But the parallel you want to draw between Yui and Dr. Katsuragi doesn't work because they're not the same type of people; they have different jobs and different goals.

Incidentally, Misato wasn't actually conscious to see this particular cut from #12 happen.

<snip>

After she wakes up, there is no indication that she's seeing something big, glowy, and weird before Dad shuts the hatch. She simply turns to him and locks eyes.

That doesn't matter. If that's what Misato remembers, that's what she saw. You can't pick and choose as to which recycled images you should be ignored. The fact of the matter is, Misato saw Adam after the CE had failed miserably. So this is not proof that she was watching the experiment.

And how can you say she wasn't conscious? As Rolando suggested, she was probably in some kind of daze. If she was unconscious, there's no way she would've been able to wake up in time to see her father.

Misato tells us...

Misato:
But he sacrificed himself to save my life at the end.
Back during the Second Impact.
Then, I didn't know whether I hated him or loved him.

What's this "sacrifice" that she speaks of? I wouldn't say it's the fact that he gave her the escape capsule at his expense – I mean, for all Misato knew, there could have been more than one. And by that point, he was already dead, really. No, it had to be something else...

That last sentence is what troubles me, because this is where you start to dip into fanfiction territory. It is painfully obvious that she's referring to the scene that the audience saw (i.e. carring Misato into a capsule and closing it, ensuring his own death to ensure her survival).

It's true that Dr. Katsuragi would've died anyway, given the shape he was in, but Misato doesn't know that. Although we don't get to see her point of view in the anime, a single frame in the manga shows us that all Misato sees is a fuzzy, silhouette of her father. All she knows is that her father placed her in a capsule, and then an explosion occured, with Misato living and her father dying. Hence, he sacrificed herself for her.


On somewhat unrelated note, am I the only one who thinks those escape capsules look like prototype entry plugs?

[Reichu]

Except that Dr. Katsuragi was an energy researcher. Why would he be participating (i.e. donating his genes) for the CE? Sure, he would definitely observe, especially if the CE was a test for the S2 theory (as I expect). But the parallel you want to draw between Yui and Dr. Katsuragi doesn't work because they're not the same type of people; they have different jobs and different goals.

Yui was a genetic engineer, and apparently so was Kyoko. Their CEs had nothing to do with genetic engineering, and neither woman had any obligation to act as a guinea pig. (Although we know Yui's motivation; Kyoko's, not so much.) I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. There simply isn't enough data to eliminate Dr. K as an option -- but he fits into the established patterns with barebones effort.*

That last sentence is what troubles me, because this is where you start to dip into fanfiction territory. It is painfully obvious that she's referring to the scene that the audience saw (i.e. carring Misato into a capsule and closing it, ensuring his own death to ensure her survival).

That he'd acted as a "human shield" earlier seems highly probabilistic, nonetheless. I'm not sure how that bit of speculation bears any resemblance to "fanfiction"**.

That doesn't matter. If that's what Misato remembers, that's what she saw. You can't pick and choose as to which recycled images you should be ignored. The fact of the matter is, Misato saw Adam after the CE had failed miserably. So this is not proof that she was watching the experiment.

It's not proof, but I wouldn't completely downplay the role of audience intuition in differentiating representations from actuality, either. (If that makes any sense. I'll try to come up with a similar case to exemplify.)

Although we don't get to see her point of view in the anime, a single frame in the manga shows us that all Misato sees is a fuzzy, silhouette of her father.

FYI, the manga does not equal the anime. And need I mention that Sadamoto chose to depict the scene somewhat differently. For example, Dr. K lacks his extensive wounds, and the "tear of blood" is omitted.

On somewhat unrelated note, am I the only one who thinks those escape capsules look like prototype entry plugs?

It's a very typical observation, although the similarities are fairly superficial.

* If you kids promise to behave, I can try, once again, to get this over with...

** ...a smear that is becoming increasingly tiresome. If you could utilize an alternative vocabulary to express your incredulity/disagreement, Reichu would appreciate it.

[Rawinder]

Yui was a genetic engineer, and apparently so was Kyoko. Their CEs had nothing to do with genetic engineering, and neither woman had any obligation to act as a guinea pig. (Although we know Yui's motivation; Kyoko's, not so much.)

Wasn't Yui in the same field of science as Fuyutsuki (i.e. metabiology)? The very name seems to imply that it has to do with the study of souls, which was integral to the very nature of the CE's done by Yui and Kyoko; not so much by the Katsuragi team.

Also, was that Kyoko's job too? I can't recall anything about Kyoko at the moment, so I can't remember if they ever stated that was her job.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

That energy researchers =/= metabiologists. Because Dr. K and Yui/Kyoko have different jobs, they therefore have different goals: the wanted to perform a CE to test the S2 theory, while the latter wanted to (as far as everyone else was concerned) experiment with the relationship between souls and Evas.*

That he'd acted as a "human shield" earlier seems highly probabilistic, nonetheless.

But it's unneccessary. Misato's comment about her father sacrificing himself is quite obviously a reference to his final act (= sealing Misato in an escape capsule and getting tangified). Trying to attribute her quote with any prior, unseen explosions that Dr. K may've been taken the brunt of would be the "fanfiction" I'm referring to.

It's not proof, but I wouldn't completely downplay the role of audience intuition in differentiating representations from actuality, either.

Certainly not, especially in the case of something like the TV ending.

* If you kids promise to behave, I can try, once again, to get this over with...

I look forward to it.

[BLACKANGEL32076]

I hate to bring this up, however I think this needs to be addressed again.

Hold on a moment. Let's consider the possibility that the intrinsic reason for her presence is more mudane.

We know from episode #12 that Misato was never very fond of her father and spent most of her time with her mother. After any divorce, it's clear that custody would have been given to her mother. So what is Misato doing with her father in Antarctica.

Perhaps the reason is that her mother has died? It would fit inot the general trend of maternal orphans in Evangelion. We never hear of her mother's fate, and her years spent in isolation after second impact would not seem to indicate any close parental relationships during that time. Of course one could then spin off connections to dead mothers in Eva's and come via a circuatous route to some kind of contact experiment involving Misato. But even without this, her mother's death would explain a great deal.

I agree with OMF on this for the simple reason that, as stated above, there is a trend of Eva main characters being maternal orphans as a result of everything that has happened since the Second Impact. Yes, the same goes for the rest of Class 2-A, however, as stated earlier in this thread, there are numerous paralells between Shinji and Misato. Also, as has been mentioned, DID think that the audience had enough between their ears to figure things out by themselves if they were paying attention to what they were watching.

@Rawinder

Except that Dr. Katsuragi was an energy researcher. Why would he be participating (i.e. donating his genes) for the CE? Sure, he would definitely observe, especially if the CE was a test for the S2 theory (as I expect). But the parallel you want to draw between Yui and Dr. Katsuragi doesn't work because they're not the same type of people; they have different jobs and different goals.

True, but you CAN draw parallels between Misato and Shinji. Could you not draw at least some indirect theories about their parents, especially since both died as a result of the events which occurred since Adam was found. I think that is what Reichu was trying to get at.

As for the rest, I do agree with you and masterOrlando regarding what Misato saw at the CE/2I.

[master0rolando]

:shock: :shock: :shock:

you....you.... :shock: :shock:


AGREE WITH ME? :shock:


.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpb0sf47DLo

. 8)