Kaworu XX [Speculative]

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Split from New Gainax figures - Angels in female human form. --Reichu

Although I first I was rather um, surpised to see Kaworu aka Tabiris in female form, I guess under the circumstances (Adam= female and Adam's soul and all), it makes sense, huh?

Don't you know about Kaworu's dark secret? If you look in the right place, you will find vazhin (sp.) but no khram (sp.)! She is very flat girl, no?

Aside from the pigmentation, the Tabris XX really looks nothing like Kaworu. Not much needs to be changed to make Kaworu 'acceptably female'.

...The right place being "her" palms? :P Borat would probably think vazgin(?) hands are very different but a very nice! ^^;

Read this:
http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=185453&page=15&pp=15 Start at the 5th post. WARNING mass Reichu manic babbling ahead!

[Sailor Star Dust]

Um, could you just sum up in a nutshell just what Reichu was getting at? I have no time to read all those pages of the discussion. :shock:

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Um in simple terms Kaworu is a girl taking her appearence from the FAR thus why in Lilim terms she doesn't look female.

[Sailor Star Dust]

FAR?? :? Like I said before, proof that Shinji's straight after all! :mrgreen:

[Anonymous_Evafan]

First Ancestor Race:

18. First Ancestral Race

A. Publicly Released Information

Data unavailable.

B. Generally Recognized Information

The entities thought to have created the Angels. The specifics of their
intention are unclear.

C. Confidential Information

They were the first extraterrestrial intelligence. The humanoid species,
referred to as the First Ancestral Race, started to spread Seeds of Life
throughout the Milky Way Galaxy. As of yet, we do not know their motives or for
what they were aiming.

It is becoming evident that multiple Seeds were disseminated. Eventually, by
force of sheer bad luck, two accidentally landed on the same planet: Adam of
the White Moon, and Lilith of the Black Moon.

D. In-Depth Information

Within a carrier known as a "Moon", the First Ancestral Race fabricated a
perfect cavity (also a moon), at which point the Seed, or "Progenitor Entity",
would be placed inside and sent out into space. That was their technology, and,
from the perspective of Angels, humans, and others, they might be called gods.

If you notice Adam and Lilith don't really look that female in Lilim terms. Kaworu suposedly is the same in a bizzare hybrid way. The theory wasn't well recived tho.

[Reichu]

At last count, only four known individuals actually endorse "that" theory.

The reasoning behind the theory is a bit... tangled, but it sorta goes like this:

• The FAR were a non-mammalian species of human lacking the marked sexual dimorphism present in our own -- that is, the only notable differences between male and female were primary sexual characteristics, those involved directly in reproduction.
  
• Adam is, physically, a "god"-version of a FAR individual and a female specialized for Seed duty.
  
• Lilim genes "dived" into Adam and physically fused into one of her eggs, producing a bona fide immaculate conception. The result was the hybrid entity, Tabris/Kaworu, half Adam, half you-know-who.
  
• Kaworu is, overall, molded in the image of the father. Adam's genes seem to have little influence -- aside from prompting the strange pigmentation, they aren't discernibly doing anything.
  
• ...unless one cannot purge certain nagging vibes emanating from the smooth-crotched Kaworu in EoE from the mind, anyway. And somehow associate that with the look Shinji gave Kaworu in the shower and how totally weird that cut has always been. And there is also the musing, "Why would Adam be occupying a male body, anyway?"
  
• So eventually comes the whimsy that maybe Kaworu isn't really a guy -- "he" just looks like one, being as "he" has the physical appearance of an adolescent Dr. Dad. But in reality, Kaworu harbors "plumbing" like Adam, and as such approaches maturation from the vantage point that human males are physically much more like FAR females than Lilim females are...
  
• So, come puberty, Keel's little girl starts to develop a boyish figure and a deep voice. "Thank heaven for unisex names. Kaworu, you're a boy from now on." "僕が？" "Yes, just like that." "You Lilim are strange."
  
• Then, eventually, Shinji is purged of all doubts and he discovers the real truth: "You were on the other side of the river all along, Kaworu-kun?"

Can't do much with this in the debate arena, but I think it's very nifty conceptually. It opens up a lot of gates for speculative possibilities. Kaworu's hybrid status is traditionally glossed over (if noted at all). The concept that his soul is female and maternal in nature has its friends and adversaries, but, if considered, adds an extra dimension to things. Take that one step further -- a very big step that goes "over the deep end" -- and contemplate Kaworu as a very unusual young woman, and things get even more interesting...

... harpooned sea nymphs.

[BobBQ]

That's an interesting idea, but... how would K-kun keep everyone from noticing? Apart from Shinji in the bath scene and all, wouldn't he have been scanned by the medics at least once?

If you can come up with a good explanation, I will seriously look into using that in TToR404.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

I go back an forth on this one. I can see Adam trying to quicken her new body in the form of her old one but do to that pesky Lilim gets Kaworu/Tabris as a result.

Adam: Why does the universe hate me so? I don't wanna fight Lilith, that damned spear knocks me out for 4 billion years, when I come to I discover I've been raped, I get blown to kingom come, and now this!

You left out the sea shore reference. Well half of it anyways.

That's an interesting idea, but... how would K-kun keep everyone from noticing? Apart from Shinji in the bath scene and all, wouldn't he have been scanned by the medics at least once?

You think Keel would let anyone find out about his trumpcard? How many people do you think Keel let get near Kaworu? And of those that did how many would be brave enough to chance pissing Keel off let alone have a reason to blurt out such a secret?

[Reichu]

That's an interesting idea, but... how would K-kun keep everyone from noticing? Apart from Shinji in the bath scene and all, wouldn't he have been scanned by the medics at least once?

MEDIC: Alright, Nagisa. Time for the pelvic exam.
KAWORU: I don't need a pelvic exam.
MEDIC: You don't need a pelvic exam...
KAWORU: My pelvis is perfectly fine.
MEDIC: Your pelvis is in perfect health...
KAWORU: I may keep my pants on.
MEDIC: I don't want to touch your nuts anyway.

or...

MEDIC: Alright. Drop your drawers.
KAWORU: As you wish.
MEDIC: What the hell? You're not a dude. In fact, I'm not sure what the hell you are.
KAWORU: Didn't my bizarre complexion and hazy red eyes suggest that there might be something weird about me?
MEDIC: Uhhh...
KAWORU: Look at my medical records, dumbass. I have an extremely rare condition.
MEDIC: Lessee... You're the only known case. Albino-like pigmentation, but otherwise no similarities to albinism observed. Hair greyed from birth. No defined external sex organs; internal organs deformed; sterility. Pupils obscured by hazy effect in cornea, but no apparent effect on keenness of vision...
KAWORU: Yes. So there's your explanation. May I go now?
MEDIC: Wait, I want to take a blood sample...
KAWORU: Forget it. This exam is over.

or...

RANDOM NERV PERSON: Come with me, Nagisa-san. You need to receive a medical screening.
KAWORU: I was screened before I was sent from Germany. You already have the data.
RNP: But it's incomplete. We need to--
KAWORU: I'm exempt from further screenings. It wasn't my decision -- it was Seele's. You'll have to contact them, I suppose.

I go back an forth on this one. I can see Adam trying to quicken her new body in the form of her old one but do to that pesky Lilim gets Kaworu/Tabris as a result.

I can't even see Tabris having a Quickening like an ordinary Apostle -- she'd simply be stuck with the puny little Lilim-type body produced by the fusion, from start to finish. I imagine the egg having to be nursed rather unnaturally by Seele's scientists, and the entity inside simply follows Lilim growth patterns; after nine months, Tabris is removed from her mandorla, and that's that.

You left out the sea shore reference. Well half of it anyways.

What about it specifically? I can't quite remember at the moment.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Doesn't Nagisa mean sea shore or something? Couple that with "women will seem like they're on another shore" line from Kaji.

RANDOM NERV PERSON: Come with me, Nagisa-san. You need to receive a medical screening.
KAWORU: I was screened before I was sent from Germany. You already have the data.
RNP: But it's incomplete. We need to--
KAWORU: I'm exempt from further screenings. It wasn't my decision -- it was Seele's. You'll have to contact them, I suppose.

That's what I was thinking.

Maybe this should be split to the Evangelion Discussion forum?

[MaggotMaster]

This thread is so ridiculous it's awesome.

I proclaim Kaworu to be an animated character, and therefore this speculation is stupid, which means you can go on.

[The Eva Monkey]

This again?

Rachel, kill it with fire if it gets dumb.

[MaggotMaster]

Rachel, kill it with fire if it gets dumb.

But then the thread would have to be locked now and I would be unable to snicker at whatever silliness comes out of it.

[Reichu]

Doesn't Nagisa mean sea shore or something? Couple that with "women will seem like they're on another shore" line from Kaji.

Means "shore"/"beach" -- don't know if it has to be bordering a sea, necessarily. The most direct application of the surname is its linkup with Ayanami, "twill wave". Wave + shore/beach? Bring a certain recurring image to mind?

The word Kaji uses in his little speech actually isn't nagisa 渚, but kishi 岸. I get the impression that the latter can refer to the bank of a river, but the former cannot.

That's what I was thinking.

Secrets Down Under or no, it would make sense for Seele to not want Nerv checking out their specimen too closely.

The manga doesn't really address this aspect of things, though, does it? Try keeping a secret like being Adam's offspring for that long -- he'd be screwed if anyone decided to sneak a peak at his DNA (before the MAGI did it for them). And if he were scanned by that thing in #04 and came out in pretty rainbow colors a la Rei. Among other possibilities.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Blames dub!

Secrets Down Under or no, it would make sense for Seele to not want Nerv checking out their specimen too closely.

The manga doesn't really address this aspect of things, though, does it? Try keeping a secret like being Adam's offspring for that long -- he'd be screwed if anyone decided to sneak a peak at his DNA (before the MAGI did it for them). And if he were scanned by that thing in #04 and came out in pretty rainbow colors a la Rei. Among other possibilities.

That's for sure!

[cat42]

But isn't the fusion of Kaworu in Lilith supposed to represent the kabbalistic androgyne?

[Reichu]

But isn't the fusion of Kaworu in Lilith supposed to represent the kabbalistic androgyne?

Adam Kadmon?

They're depicted as sharing a pelvis, for some reason.

[cat42]

EDIT====

"Here, the south wind is represented as a large eagle, gradually uniting the two opposites. The three legs on which the androgynous being stands, refer to the three-footed stand on which the retort is exposed to the fire. After the coupling, Sol says to Luna, 'we will rise into the order of the most ancient [that is 24 sublimations or eagles], then will a burning light be poured into me and you' (Senior Zadith, in: Aurora Consurgens)."

[/quote]

[Reichu]

WTF? Source please, etc. etc.

[cat42]

WTF? Source please, etc. etc.

refer to my edit of my previous post.

It's the alchemical androgyne (yay me for being a rabid enough mansonite to learn some things about alchemy and kabbalism)


EDIT====

something of interest...

The Tree Of Life represented or superimposed in human form is often referred to as Adam Kadmon, or The Heavenly Man, "and contains within itself all souls, spirits, and intelligences in every part of the cosmos"