The Kaworu Controversy

[Reichu]

Also, Kaworu's love/friendship for Shinji is just beautiful

I'm still not entirely sure what to make of it. He says some pretty weird things.

KAWORU:
What are you doing today?

Shinji:
Well, the regular tests are over,
so all I have left is to take a shower and go home, but...
But the truth is, lately, I don't really want to go home.

KAWORU:
A place to return to...
The fact that you have a home will lead to your happiness.
It's a very good thing.

Shinji must be such a social klutz that he doesn't notice how Kaworu virtually blows off what he says. If you tell somebody that you don't want to go home, but they tell you that "Home --> happiness" rather than giving any indication that they care about your problem, what would your reaction be?

KAWORU:
You go to such extremes to avoid first contact.
Are you afraid of connecting with other people?
If you don't get close to others,
you'll never be betrayed and you'll never hurt each other.
But you'll also never be able to forget your loneliness.
Humans can never banish their loneliness for good,
because being human means being alone.
But humans are able to go on with their lives
because they're able to forget it every so often.

How exactly is Kaworu making this assessment of Shinji within hours of meeting him? I wonder if Kaworu might be talking about himself more than he's talking about Shinji.

And... "Be betrayed", huh?

KAWORU:
Humans constantly feel pain in their hearts.
Because the heart is so sensitive to pain,
humans also feel that to live is to suffer.
You're so delicate, like glass, especially your heart.

Shinji:
Me?

KAWORU:
Yes, you have my regard for it.

Shinji:
Regard?

KAWORU:
It means, I love you.

Why does Kaworu have "regard" and "love" for Shinji because he is "delicate"? Judging by what he says, "delicate" seems to mean "especially prone to suffering". What kind of reason is that to "regard" and "love" somebody? Pity?

Kaworu even says that to suffer is human, so Shinji would only be 'special'' in his "fragility". "I don't love you for who you are as a person, really. I love you because you have a low threshold for the abuse called Life."

KAWORU:
What do you want to talk about?
There are things you want me to hear, right?

Shinji:
All sorts of things have happened since I came here.
Before coming here, I used to live with my teacher.
The days were peaceful. Nothing ever happened.
I only had to exist there.
But that was okay, because there was nothing I had to do.

KAWORU:
Did you hate people?

Shinji:
Not really, I think it didn't matter, one way or another.
But I did hate my father.

Shinji (MONO):
Why am I telling Kaworu all this?

KAWORU:
Maybe I was born, so that I would meet you.

For a couple of lines, Kaworu seems genuinely interested in Shinji on a more person-to-person level. But how on Earth does "I did hate my father" prompt "Maybe I was born so that I would meet you"? What kind of thing is this to say?

And if he really means it, what the hell kind of life has he been living in Germany to consider the possibility that this kid he's known for a day is his reason for being? What about Seele machinations or the betrayal thereof, which would include potentially cool stuff like, you know, the possibility of ADAM RESURRECTION? (Adam had invested billions of years into this Seed objective. What's one Earth day?)

Seriously, getting blown up and being raised under Seele's roof in a body that's not hers must have really messed Adam up.

</rant>

Even if these parts were cleared up and everything else gets butchered in Webuild, I would not hate nor really dislike Webuild too much.

Talk about Webuild in the original thread, PLZKTHX.

[Trigger's Elysium]

Hahaha. I'm putting my Kaworu sig back on for the sole purpose of the results of this thread.

[Reichu]

Hahaha. I'm putting my Kaworu sig back on for the sole purpose of the results of this thread.

What results?

...or did he?


ADAM: I couldn't accomplish my mission. In the end, I abandoned it. But fate is taking unusual turns. I'll have another chance, somewhere far away.
AKIRA: To be a mother, you mean.
ADAM: Yes.
AKIRA: You aren't the only one who failed. So did I. As a father.
ADAM: You still have the power to redeem yourself, if you desire it.
AKIRA: I don't know if I deserve it.
ADAM: You died so your child could live. That is a far more honorable sacrifice than my own. I let myself be killed and intentionally relinquished my children's final hope for life, so that the Lilim could live. Was that truly the right thing to do?
AKIRA: I don't know.
ADAM: Would you let your children die so that another's could live? Would you die with them?
AKIRA: Perhaps... if the sacrifice of a few were compensated by the number of lives saved in turn.
ADAM: I suppose that could serve as a justification. But it is not so simple a matter for me.
AKIRA: Because of who you are. And what you left behind to become.


Disregard that. I'm crazy.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Ooh, that was dramatic and nifty, I like!


You make some good points, Reichu. Too bad I couldn't realize that myself. ; (FYI, I was saying "Kaworu=Male" for the sake of those who haven't Turned. another FYI, I have "Turned" obviously. ;))

[slothen]

All I'm gonna say: Reichu's theory or no, I like Kaworu. He's (ZOMG! :shock: ) a wonderful character, espeically the whole Angel of Free Will aspect (the fact Kaworu=Adam doesn't hurt to.).

Also, Kaworu's love/friendship for Shinji is just beautiful, sad how Shinji became very depressed because of Kaworu's death, though.

You dissapoint me. :evil:

[BrikHaus]

...or did he?

Reichu, is this an admission that you think Kaworu is a guy after all? I knew you weren't really serious about all that fem-Kaworu stuff.

[Reichu]

Reichu, is this an admission that you think Kaworu is a guy after all?

Ooh, that was dramatic and nifty, I like!

Wait, which post?

You make some good points, Reichu. Too bad I couldn't realize that myself. ;

I figured they were some interesting considerations that don't come up much. When I hear interpretations of Kaworu's character, the big picture doesn't seem to feature much.

(FYI, I was saying "Kaworu=Male" for the sake of those who haven't Turned. another FYI, I have "Turned" obviously. ;))

You don't need to make any apologies to me. I stopped beating people over the head with fem-pronouns since I decided, ultimately, that they were much more trouble than they were worth, and it was easier to just routinely mention or reference f-K in other ways.

But... I wasn't referring to that particular Controversy when I named the thread.

[Reichu]

I REALLY NEED TO STOP SPLITTING THREADS AND JUST LOCK THEM OR SOMETHING.

This shit was in split posts:

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:40 pm

<Reichu Big Rant>

I kinda see your point in his significance despite the little time he had. I wish he would have been in longer, but his point was made and was well executed.

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:48 pm

I thought my Big Rant was about Kaworu and Shinji's relationship being fucked up?

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:52 pm

To Reichu, although it wasn't related to what you said. I was thinking of your previous posts and your big rant helped me see how Kaworu was an important figure despite his show time.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Reichu, is this an admission that you think Kaworu is a guy after all?

Ooh, that was dramatic and nifty, I like!

Wait, which post?

ADAM: I couldn't accomplish my mission. In the end, I abandoned it. But fate is taking unusual turns. I'll have another chance, somewhere far away.
AKIRA: To be a mother, you mean.
ADAM: Yes.
AKIRA: You aren't the only one who failed. So did I. As a father.
ADAM: You still have the power to redeem yourself, if you desire it.
AKIRA: I don't know if I deserve it.
ADAM: You died so your child could live. That is a far more honorable sacrifice than my own. I let myself be killed and intentionally relinquished my children's final hope for life, so that the Lilim could live. Was that truly the right thing to do?
AKIRA: I don't know.
ADAM: Would you let your children die so that another's could live? Would you die with them?
AKIRA: Perhaps... if the sacrifice of a few were compensated by the number of lives saved in turn.
ADAM: I suppose that could serve as a justification. But it is not so simple a matter for me.
AKIRA: Because of who you are. And what you left behind to become.


Disregard that. I'm crazy.

[Opteron-O3]

Personally I liked the whole Adam and Akira conversation. Gave me a little chills reading it :P

[Reichu]

Personally I liked the whole Adam and Akira conversation. Gave me a little chills reading it :P

I can't possibly imagine what your reaction to the unfinished fanfiction I extracted it from would be.

:wonders if Opteron knows who "Akira" is supposed to be:

A bit gratuitous, but thinking about "Kaworu dying" + "sin" led my brain on a strange journey, and I started seeing "Kaworu=Adam died for her sins" for no apparent reason. "Sins" here being "failure as a Seed and mother".

YES I KNOW I AM WEIRD.

[Opteron-O3]

Personally I liked the whole Adam and Akira conversation. Gave me a little chills reading it :P

I can't possibly imagine what your reaction to the unfinished fanfiction I extracted it from would be.

:wonders if Opteron knows who "Akira" is supposed to be:

Fruits Basket? I'm not really knowledgeable in the Anime world as I am still a nooby :(

[Reichu]

Fruits Basket? I'm not really knowledgeable in the Anime world as I am still a nooby :(

No wonder it gave you the chills. It's just a name I gave to Misato's nameless dad. Why he's talking to Adam is not important. (You can always PM me if you care.)

Anyway.

[Eva Yojimbo]

I have a lot to say on this subject, but I'll save it for a time when I'm more alert and awake to write. I generally agree with Reichu on the subject though. I think Kaworu is a wonderful character given how little time he had on screen. I also agree with another assessment that to fit him in anywhere else in the series would've been difficult. Ep. 19-23 are pretty packed without him in. The only way (IMO) to give the Kaworu character and the Kaworu/Shinji relationship more time to develope would've been to either cut all or a significant portion of 25 to fit it in, or to extend the series to 27 episodes which they obviously didn't have the budget for.

In my constant analysis of NGE I have to try (very had sometimes) to truly understand the characters' thoughts and feelings, and leave my own opinions out of the mix. Obviously any interpretation will be filled with personal opinions, but I try to only fill the gaps left with those opinions. That said, I think to like Kaworu you have to understand his thoughts and feelings and his CHANGE throughout 24. When I get some time, I'll elaborate more on this...

[Reichu]

The only way (IMO) to give the Kaworu character and the Kaworu/Shinji relationship more time to develope would've been to either cut all or a significant portion of 25 to fit it in, or to extend the series to 27 episodes which they obviously didn't have the budget for.

They could have potentially incorporated more material into #24' than they did. The Directors' Cuts were released after EoE, after all, when budgetary concerns were no longer XBOX HUEG.

In my constant analysis of NGE I have to try (very had sometimes) to truly understand the characters' thoughts and feelings, and leave my own opinions out of the mix. Obviously any interpretation will be filled with personal opinions, but I try to only fill the gaps left with those opinions.

Try to interpret Dr. Katsuragi sometime. Har har har!

That said, I think to like Kaworu you have to understand his thoughts and feelings and his CHANGE throughout 24. When I get some time, I'll elaborate more on this...

I SHIVER WITH ANTICIPA...tion.

I doubt it's really possible for us puny mortals to really understand characters like Kaworu and Rei, though, considering that they're really messengers from an ancient race of extraterrestrial humans and all. And we really know nothing about Kaworu's 14-odd years in Germany, although we might deduce that they totally sucked.

Writing about Kaworu is fun since there are so many unexplained things to fill in. I privately envision Kaworu as a confused, sad, lonely, messed-up little cookie who hides behind smirks, smiles, and hazy red eyes. (But my own interpretation is inconsequential since it also involves Kaworu being a girl.)

[Sailor Star Dust]

You have a great point, Reichu, that Kaworu is as fucked-up as the rest of the cast. I agree with your person POV of K-kun, that is, what you wrote about it so far. ;)

Although it saddens me to think that she didn't really love Shinji as a person, but as you said, simply took pity on him because he has "a low threshold for life".

Jeez, the one person (besides Yui??) to say "suki" (I like you) to Shin-chan and it's not in the way it should be; unconditional love! Talk about irony!

Shinji: Hmm...The only person who I became instant best friends with claims that they loved me and died by my hand, or the twisted girl I have feelings for as well as the only one who isn't a freaky distant clone of Mother or my Mother-figure that wants to "make me feel better" and has also become distant as of late.

Shinji: .... *staring at the lake* That water looks awfully pretty. I think I'll go for a swim despite the fact I don't know how to. Who, me? Attempting suicide despite the fact I can't bring myself to go through with it? Never! /irony

*Shinji promptly jumps into the lake, realizes what the hell he's doing and gets out*

Shinji, his wet face ala AIR: .....

Shinji: ...Screw it, I guess I'll take what's behind Hospital Door Number 303. And if she doesn't help me, that's it. I quit, I fail at Life. Bad end, Game Over, Life--everyone and everything about it--sucks.

*He wanders to Asuka's room and you know the rest*

I suppose the fact I took the time to write a semi-dramatic "piece" (although I don't write in script format, save for an earlier Sailormoon comedy piece) like that is a sign I should work on my fanfics this break. ^^;

EDIT: Added this part below as it suddenly crossed my mind to include it, fitting the topic so well and all. If it's about Kaworu's attiude towards Shinji, then I just want to take a moment to point out IMHO based on series evidence, Shinji's feelings towards Kaworu.

WARNING: The following is based on Canon as opposed to being about fan-shipping or anti-shipping. To be blunt, there's none of that "who's the best match for Shinji" crap here, that's for another thread still(??) in existence.

You have a boy who hasn't received a hell of a lot of love (lol 26 Final Scene?), sympathy (lol 26' Final Scene?), or affection (Yui's farewell caress and Asuka's stop it caress, more lolz) growing up due to the "loss" of his Mother.
He's also one who doesn't know how to interact with people, though I have a sneaking suspicion he understands people's feelings/intent more than he lets on, I also think that's the case with Rei. (Though I don't know if the fact they're both introverted has to do with it, but it's possible.)

Any dang way, along comes Kaworu, who showers (No puns or I'll do...something Yeah.) Shinji with such sudden sympathy, love and affection, that of course he reacts by blushing, acting uncomfortable/surprised, etc.

If Shinji WAS in love with Kaworu, thus implying he's most likely Bi, there certainly would have been some mention of that one way or another. Such as an attempt at a secret kiss, if nothing else.

But what do we see throughout the series, including EoE?

Shinji blushing around, trying to kiss, being kissed by, masturbating near, as well as admitting his feelings for (albeit going the wrong way about it), Asuka.

In 24' as well as EoE, I'd say the fact that Shinji was shown as being happy and comfortable around Kaworu was because he finally thought he found someone who truly understood and loved him. /

[Opteron-O3]

In 24' as well as EoE, I'd say the fact that Shinji was shown as being happy and comfortable around Kaworu was because he finally thought he found someone who truly understood and loved him. /

Bingo ;)

[Reichu]

In 24' as well as EoE, I'd say the fact that Shinji was shown as being happy and comfortable around Kaworu was because he finally thought he found someone who truly understood and loved him.

EoE is sort of mysterious, considering Kaworu had 'betrayed' him, and yadda yadda. Why would this person he barely knew, and managed to hurt him in a major way as well, deserve more "forgiveness" (as it were) and be a more welcome sight than, say, Misato or Rei?

I'll still say that Shinji's foremost reasons for latching on to Kaworu were selfish, blind, and born out of desperation.

There's also that other idea of mine that, on some level or another, Shinji does view Kaworu as a 'surrogate mother' figure (despite appearances...), and Kaworu is thusly used to fill the void left by Misato, etc. (And Shinji ends up being Kaworu's 'surrogate child', at the expense of Adam's own.) Well, it's all rather consistent with their relationship being utterly fucked up.

Some amount of sexual confusion on Shinji's part would be quite natural, methinks.

[Opteron-O3]

In 24' as well as EoE, I'd say the fact that Shinji was shown as being happy and comfortable around Kaworu was because he finally thought he found someone who truly understood and loved him.

EoE is sort of mysterious, considering Kaworu had 'betrayed' him, and yadda yadda. Why would this person he barely knew, and managed to hurt him in a major way as well, deserve more "forgiveness" (as it were) and be a more welcome sight than, say, Misato or Rei?

Well he did say he was scared of Misato and Rei didn't he? Well, the only person who actually cared for him and would rather let Shinji kill him in order for Shinji and the rest of the human race to survive... Think deserves a little forgiveness despite his betrayal... He had that feeling towards him that he didn't have with Misato or Rei.

Also the fact that the closest person to ever give him that sort of love/care a motherly figure would have given him(Yui) was Kaworu.

[Sailor Star Dust]

I can't believe I forgot to mention the whole Kaworu=surrogate mother aspect on here, that's also a very good point of Shinji's behavior, besides the fact he was desperate for attention at that point.

And of course in regards to Asuka, she ain't exactly the motherly type *cough*, except for the parallels between this

and this