Subs vs. Dubs (was:Viz flips)

[Zkh]

Hello, I just wanted to ask;

My first few volumes of the NGE manga are flipped, left to right reading, some of my later ones are right to left, I honestly can't see a difference, but you guys are the experts here so, should I rebuy the first 5 or so volumes of the manga unflipped? The flipped versions are larger in size, and I guess hold some kind of place in my heart as the first NGE volumes I bought.
I'm going at this question from a "Will it effect the story" approach, not a weeaboo approach.

[Ornette]

The first editions of the first 5 or so volumes were first released flipped (left to right), but the 2nd editions have them unflipped. The only thing that it effects is the image is mirrored. So things that should be to the right of something is to the left. I don't think it effects the story nearly as much as say, the Lone Wolf and Cub manga, which were all flipped making all the samurai left handed.

[Reichu]

Prior to buying any of the manga, I remember seeing scans online where Sachiel's second head was on the wrong side, and I was thinking, "Seriously... dudes... NO." Thankfully, even back then in the pre-Ameritankouban days, Viz also published unflipped versions that left the sound effects intact.

I'm so glad flipped manga is less in vogue now. I was going to buy the Akira manga a couple of months ago, and then I found out that only a mangled version was available. "DARK HORSE, YOU MOTHERFUCKERS! IS THAT GINORMOUS PRICE TAG TO COVER ARTWORK MODIFICATION EXPENSES, HUH?!? UP YOURS, I'M TORRENTING!"

Carry on.

[Zkh]

Alright so, basically It doesn't change anything but the direction c haracters are facing etc.

That's a relief because I'm not too thrilled at spending $50 for something i already have.


On an unrelated note, WTF REICHU?!

[BobBQ]

Having suffered through the entirety of DH's flipped Gunsmith Cats import, I have no choice but to agree with Reichu.

[Reichu]

At least DH's Berserk is left intact. But that's because Miura-san told them, "I don't think so, kids. You do anything to that artwork, and Guts will be very upset. And when Guts gets upset, people start getting cleaved in half."

[BrikHaus]

I don't understand the average manga reader's desire to have the panels not flipped and sound effects left untranslated. For not flipping: Why do you want it going right to left? You don't read English right to left, do you? In fact, to be more authentic they should probably start making all the English words run top to bottom and in a right to left fashion, as well. Then it would be more authentic and closer to the artist's original vision. Oh, but that might be too inconvenient to read. So we'll just go ahead and only change some things (writing order) but not others (panel order). And the sound effects not being translated? What the hell is that all about? I guarantee that the average manga reader cannot read any hiragana or katakana. So the sound effects become just part of the drawing and are rendered completely meaningless. Way to go, assholes, now you have less to read. I mean, I don't understand the problem with translating everything. Either translate it all, or none of it. In fact, if these people want authenticity in their Japanese comics, why not just import them from Japan and learn to read something motherfucking kanji? Oh wait, that would actually require some effort, and if they can't understand something, then they won't have Viz/Dark Horse/whoever to blame for a "shitty translation." Nevermind. [/end rant]

[Reichu]

I don't understand the average manga reader's desire to have the panels not flipped and sound effects left untranslated.

Learning to read manga right to left is ludicrously easy. Altering the artwork is needless.

As for the sound effects -- I don't feel like articulating my full thoughts on that right now.

[The Eva Monkey]

I don't understand the average manga reader's desire to have the panels not flipped and sound effects left untranslated.

For me, it's two reasons:

1. Closer to the original in terms of culture and artistic integrity.
2. I want to support the cheaper version. If more people read manga in the original orientation, and more people watch anime subbed, companies won't needlessly spend money on services to make anime more approachable to the surface level anime fans out there.

[Kaysow]

...which would also speed up the localization process tremendously.

[BobBQ]

RANT

Every character is left-handed.

Every gun looks like it came out of Counter-Strike.

Think about that.

[Trigger's Elysium]

2. I want to support the cheaper version. If more people read manga in the original orientation, and more people watch anime subbed, companies won't needlessly spend money on services to make anime more approachable to the surface level anime fans out there.

Are you against dubs, then? Or people completely new to anime? What kind of logic is this?

[The Eva Monkey]

Are you against dubs, then? Or people completely new to anime? What kind of logic is this?

Dubs suck. They ruin the anime. They encourage immaturity in new fans. People should watch anime in as close to the original format as possible.

If you watch dubs, start watching subbed anime as soon as possible, you will be glad you did. I can't stress it enough.

[Trigger's Elysium]

Dubs suck. They ruin the anime. They encourage immaturity in new fans.

How? How do they "ruin the anime"? They dub over lines that the original Japanese voice actors spoke with English actors, yes. How is this ruining the anime, rather than merely making it English rather than Japanese? Your average American is English, not Japanese. Maybe something like the One Piece dub ruins the anime, because it mangles plot points, provides actors who do not fit their parts whatsoever, and censors and combines episodes, but something like Cowboy Bebop is not; you are getting the exact same dialogue, the exact same story, the exact same experience, only with English voices rather than ones you don't understand and have to read subtitles for. And I happen to believe that the English VAs for Cowboy Bebop fit better than their Japanese counterparts. And your immaturity claim is only half true; it may get a lot of masses into certain extremely popular dubbed anime, and while there are a lot of idiots, there are also potential true anime fans among these people, like 99.9% of us once were. If not for dubbed anime, I would not have gotten into anime at all.

People should watch anime in as close to the original format as possible.

What gives you the right to say what people should and should not watch? That's an elitist attitude if i've ever saw one.

If you watch dubs, start watching subbed anime as soon as possible, you will be glad you did. I can't stress it enough.

I've been watching both formats for years. There are some subs I prefer more than the dubs (One Piece, Evangelion) and there are dubs I prefer over subs (Cowboy Bebop, Serial Experiments Lain). Why limit yourself to one format?

[Ornette]

I sense sub vs dub war

you are getting the exact same dialogue, the exact same story, the exact same experience, only with English voices rather than ones you don't understand and have to read subtitles for.

With the exception that the original VA's were chosen and worked under the original director of the show and the sound effects track is remixed and sometimes redone completely. Most foreign films are left with their original language, can you imagine watching Rashomon dubbed? Bebop had a tolerable dub, IMO, and I think Wendee Lee is not a very good voice actress. DVD's would be cheaper if they didn't have to hire an entire English cast, redo all the ADR and remix the audio tracks. And the American anime industry may end up actually making money instead of mostly breaking even.

[Zkh]

I usually watch anime in both formats, first subbed to get the story closer to what it's supposed to be, then dubs so i don't miss anything that's going on on the screen.



As for characters being left handed in flipped manga, who cares, seriously, the hand they write with DOES NOT ALTER PLOT AT ALL, unless it's some battle between the hands.


Also THIS IS ABOUT WEATHER THE FLIPS MESS UP NGE'S STORY AT ALL, NOT OTHER MANGA.

[BrikHaus]

My rant was never meant to incite a dub vs. sub war, so mods, please don't lock the thread on us because of this little tangent...

Dubs suck. They ruin the anime.

This is such a narrow-minded statement, it's ridiculous. In regards to the Bebop dub. It rocks. It's so damn good that the Japanese R2 Bebop DVD Special Features disc has an entire segment dedicated to showcasing how fucking awesome the English cast is. The director himself said it was quite good. You can't really argue with that. I even seem to remember reading that the director of You're Under Arrest was so impressed by the English cast, he forced his Japanese actors to watch it in English so they could improve their performances for the sequel.

People should watch anime in as close to the original format as possible.

So can I safely assume you mean they watch it without subtitles? Because that's as close as you're going to get to the original format. Of course, you didn't mean that, but unless you speak Japanese you'll never watch the show in the original format. Some people like subs, some people dubs. Who gives a shit how others watch it? It's not as if reading subtitles and hearing the lines spoken in Japanese somehow gives you a deeper insight into the inner workings of the characters.

With the exception that the original VA's were chosen and worked under the original director of the show...DVD's would be cheaper if they didn't have to hire an entire English cast, redo all the ADR and remix the audio tracks. And the American anime industry may end up actually making money instead of mostly breaking even.

Obviously, the director chose Japanese VA's because the show was created with a Japanese audience in mind. Similarly, in America, an English speaking cast is chosen to cater to an American audience. It's not as if Shinichiro Watanabe would have scrounged the corners of the Earth for the greatest actors in any language to do the show. That's just stupid. It's all about trying to achieve the largest audience possible for your demographic. If you have a problem with the costs, then why don't you start importing the Japenese R2 DVD's? They're twice as expensive, with half the episodes per disc.

I hope I'm not coming across as having an attitude here, that's not my intent at all. My apologies if it sounds that way.

[Trigger's Elysium]

I sense sub vs dub war

You got one. =P

With the exception that the original VA's were chosen and worked under the original director of the show and the sound effects track is remixed and sometimes redone completely. Most foreign films are left with their original language, can you imagine watching Rashomon dubbed? Bebop had a tolerable dub, IMO, and I think Wendee Lee is not a very good voice actress. DVD's would be cheaper if they didn't have to hire an entire English cast, redo all the ADR and remix the audio tracks. And the American anime industry may end up actually making money instead of mostly breaking even.

Yeah, dubbing makes DVDs more expensive. And anime is a niche market, for the most part, so it's not like there's much actual revenue being generated at all. But what about the millions of anime fans who actually LIKE dubs, that buy the anime in the first place? That watch their anime on TV? Without them, you'd initially lose a chunk of revenue from the people who buy anime DVDs for their dubbing. That, and if anime is to ever become TRULY popular in the US, an English dub would be the only way to do this. You know, how English people speak English and such? Sound effects need to be slightly remixed from time to time, sure, but complete replacement of sound effect tracks are the signs of a bad dub (see One Piece). And what about the anime dub actors and actresses who make these dubs happen, who put a lot of work into doing their jobs, find work?

That, and I don't really care about a false sense of authencity. I don't like dubs of live action material because lip flaps and actor ethincy barriers prevent me from taking it seriously. This is not the case with anime. I hope you're not saying that a well translated dub is not the same story and feel as the "tr00" version, because that's stupid. Whether you like dubs or subs is up to you, ultimately, though. Also, I agree with everything BrikHaus said.

[THE Hal E. Burton 9000]

Well now, since this is an official dub vs. sub war, I shall decree whose side I'm on: SUBS! Best example: Seiyū Megumi Ogata's performance as Shinji. Spike Spencer never topped that! Though there are quality dubs out there (most of Miyazaki's and Watanabe's works come to mind), most dubs involve the voice actors just witnessing the emotion on film and getting their script from someone who does not make them aware of certain nuances that are then lost in translation. From cultural or social references that are lost on foreign audiences; or, in a few cases, plot points and such.

[Ornette]

I wonder, how often would someone who watches dubs go into a store, pick up something that looked interesting but put it back down because it was sub only yet was cheaper?

I'm in no way suggesting that licensors should stop dubbing anime. I only suggested an immediate benefit based on the writings of some region 1/2 people who are in the know, as I'm definitely not in a position of authority of the anime industry outside of Japan. Things are the way they are because of precedents set in the 70s and 80s, when anime was imported to be shown to kids after they got home from school. Since then, the industry has been dubbing (with a few exceptions, like MSGundam) and this carried over to titles that weren't even meant for kids. There's no way to change that.

At the very least, Geneon USA is releasing Ergo Proxy with subs only that you can download. I think it's a move in the right direction.

As for the page flip. Left handed samurai are wrong. After the 30 or so volumes, I still couldn't get used to it. The sound effects are usually artistically drawn and sometimes make up the frame. And there is usually a guide for the sound effects if it isn't already translated between the frames.