EVA-01 & Lilith

[Reichu]

LOL SPLIT.

Content from posts I couldn't split away (and one I neglected to split) follow):

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Anonymous_EvaFan
Fri May 18, 2007 10:55 am

and the fact that Sho was born from Lilith would be inconsequential.

All of the Evas are born from Adam so I don't see your point here. The only thing that allowed was EVA-01 to stand in for Lilith the same way EVA-02 seemed to be able to do for Adam.

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Opteron-03
Fri May 18, 2007 11:06 am

All of the Evas are born from Adam so I don't see your point here. The only thing that allowed was EVA-01 to stand in for Lilith the same way EVA-02 seemed to be able to do for Adam.

Actually wasn't there a discussion that Eva01 was born or "replicated" per-se from Lilith?

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Anonymous_EvaFan
Fri May 18, 2007 4:29 pm

Actually wasn't there a discussion that Eva01 was born or "replicated" per-se from Lilith?

EVA-01 is clearly and Adam type human. The exact mechaincs of her birth are a bit odd to me. Reichu stated somewhere recently that it looks like EVA-01 was leeching biomass from Lilith and rewriting it's genetic code (don't know the name of the process). There is an old ANF thread that covers most of this that I'll dig up again sometime later tonight.

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Reichu Post Start!

EVA-01 is clearly and Adam type human.

If memory serves, even Chronicle goes out of its way to say that the truth about EVA-01 here is unknown. Much as I like Surrogate Daughter, I can't abide it being thrown around as undeniable fact. A little ass-coverage goes a long way.

The exact mechaincs of her birth are a bit odd to me. Reichu stated somewhere recently that it looks like EVA-01 was leeching biomass from Lilith and rewriting it's genetic code (don't know the name of the process).

Biomass assimilation wouldn't involve "rewriting the genetic code" of the original organism -- gene therapy this isn't. Think of it as similar to metabolic assimilation -- devouring the biomass of another lifeform (like a cattle) and using it as raw materials for the construction/repair/etc. of one's own body.

BTW, I thought you said that PWM-based entities didn't have DNA.

It's completely possible Kaworu wasn't interested in his orginal body since he had access to a fully developed body.

Lilith was able to inflate magnificently once she got her soul back. In theory, could the Adam embryo have performed a comparable "insta-grow" manuever?

[n00dle]

I would think Eva-01 would have to be from Lilith. If it were like the other Eva's, then it wouldn't be so unique, and thus, so important. Seele could have just gone ahead and used Eva-02, or even Eva-0. Ok maybe not Eva-0, she's got all kinds of problems, would probably fuck up the whole plan...

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Much as I like Surrogate Daughter, I can't abide it being thrown around as undeniable fact.

I'm not throwing that around as a fact. EVA-01 clearly can't be a "clone of Lilith". Her body structure is that of an Adam type human. Let everyone come up with their own explaination for how it happened.

Think of it as similar to metabolic assimilation -- devouring the biomass of another lifeform (like a cattle) and using it as raw materials for the construction/repair/etc. of one's own body.

Ah, makes much more sense now.

BTW, I thought you said that PWM-based entities didn't have DNA.

That's not what I said. I believe my exact words were they don't have DNA in the same terms as we do.

Lilith was able to inflate magnificently once she got her soul back. In theory, could the Adam embryo have performed a comparable "insta-grow" manuever?

I can't decide on this one. One the one hand Sandalphon and Ramiel display spontainious mass generation abilities, on the other hand their bodies were much more developed that Adam's at that point.

I would think Eva-01 would have to be from Lilith.

Who said she wasn't? I only said she can't be Lilith's clone.


LOL just noticed a typo

[Reichu]

Whoops, forgot to split this post...

Eva Yojimbo
Sat May 19, 2007 9:27 am

I'm not throwing that around as a fact. EVA-01 clearly can't be a "clone of Lilith". Her body structure is that of an Adam type human. Let everyone come up with their on explaination for how it happened.

I've had a theory that the reason Lilith was just some blobby mass was because of her lack of a soul. What we could be seeing is simply the basic matter - PWM, or whatever - that makes up a SOL's body. Remember, the soul creates the form. Once Lilith is ensouled we see her as a giant version of Rei and later Kaworu. So if soul shapes the form, then this could be the reason why there's a disparity in Lilith and Adam's bodytype.

IOW, it's possible that Adam's body minus soul is something similar to that of Lilith. Just a giant hunk of PWM mass. Once ensouled it takes the form of a giant humanoid (Eva like). This could be the basic, ensouled form of both Lilith and Adam. Which would explain why Sho came from Lilith looking like she did and likewise, the other Evas from Adam (the MPE's are another matter entirely).

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Reichu Post Start!

I've had a theory that the reason Lilith was just some blobby mass was because of her lack of a soul.

Lilith looks like a blobby mass in the "birthing" image, which is clearly before the CE (and hence before Rei's creation).

Remember, the soul creates the form.

When you're made of PWM, genes can be responsible for a body's formation entirely independent of a soul. The Angels and Evas are born without souls; and see also the Adam embryo. Form without souls.

The soul can, however, modify the native form, via ATF/S2 Voodoo and all that.

So if soul shapes the form, then this could be the reason why there's a disparity in Lilith and Adam's bodytype. ... IOW, it's possible that Adam's body minus soul is something similar to that of Lilith. Just a giant hunk of PWM mass.

Using the soulless Eva prototypes (Adam "copies") and pre-CE Lilith as our only available reference -- not likely. Nor is the embryo an undefined "hunk of PWM mass", but something in a defined developmental phase.

Potentially Lilith is "natively" the same type of humanoid as Adam, and the FAR somehow modified her afterwards in such a way that her DNA was unaffected. However, there are some problems with this.

(A) The idea of the Evas being "Adams made by humans" is reinforced again and again throughout the show, and never actually negated. Kaworu doesn't even revoke his own words regarding the matter.

(B) After scanning Lilith's genetic pattern, the MAGI scanners register her as "human" rather than "Angel". For various reasons, this makes no obvious sense by my reckoning if we presume they are using the definitions "human"="Lilim" and "Angel"="offspring of Adam". Attributing the MAGI's assessment to Lilith's transmogrification would be odd, as well, since ATF-metamorphosis didn't alter the DNA of the Angels -- so why would it be any different with Lilith?

In the event that Lilith's DNA has NOT changed, this indicates that she is, in fact, different from Adam & family, and those differences should be reflected in EVA-01 accordingly. But, instead, Sho fits quite comfortably among the Eva ranks.

(C) Parallels with Adam are made even after the "Lilith's sole bunshin" revelation is provided: When Yui ascends in #25', the strange, scream-like noise clearly evokes Adam at 2I (#12); and, rather than sprout fleshy wings as per Lilith, hers are "Wings of Light", as per Adam's. (And they are still Wings of Light after Yui attains GNR-level powah.)

One the one hand Sandalphon and Ramiel display spontainious mass generation abilities, on the other hand their bodies were much more developed that Adam's at that point.

If you watch Sandalphon's metamorphosis closely, he doesn't actually generate any mass -- just rearranges what is already there.

[n00dle]

Ah ok, guess I misunderstood. So basically the question isn't if Eva-01 is made from Liliths bio-mass, but if she's a clone? Well, does it really matter? I would assume the bio-mass would be enough.

[Executor]

Hows about Unit-01 uses both material from both Adam and Lilith? It could be that it is made of both, with most of its tissue from Lilith, but keeps enough to maintain the same similer shape from Adam.
.2, take it or leave it.

[tinmeigut]

Hey hey, if Eva-01 is partly made of Adam, then she would probably have nearly initiated Third Impact when she enter the Central Dogma as she pursued Kaworu.

Some trivia I'd like to point out here- the regenerating sequence of the left arm in the fight with Zeruel. It was really quite according to the real physiology of human in the way that Eva-01 needed to use the other's arm to make her own. You can have a new plant by just taking out any cell from the plant; they got all the genes there, just treat it well and someday a new plant will greet you good morning. But for human the cells are so specialised that you won't find the genes of insulin in a muscle cell. You can only clone a block of muscle from a muscle cell, which Eva-01 has well demostrated.

Eva-01 did study some Biology didn't she?

[Tokpile Quohog]

Well, Yui is a freakin genius.

[BrikHaus]

I don't think anyone should try make sense out of the arm regeneration scene, and use that to try to explain the Evas, after all it's just meta-physical biology.

[Reichu]

Hey hey, if Eva-01 is partly made of Adam, then she would probably have nearly initiated Third Impact when she enter the Central Dogma as she pursued Kaworu.

Note Gendo's total lack of concern about EVA-00 going down there in #22.

Hows about Unit-01 uses both material from both Adam and Lilith? It could be that it is made of both, with most of its tissue from Lilith, but keeps enough to maintain the same similer shape from Adam.

The idea is that her genes are Adam-derived, but Lilith provided a "surrogate womb", so to speak. In that sense, EVA-01 would be "made from both".

[n00dle]

I don't really thing the shape of the Eva's should matter much, they were made in a lab, so couldn't their shape at least partly be because that was what the creators wanted them to look like?

[Anonymous_Evafan]

I don't really thing the shape of the Eva's should matter much, they were made in a lab, so couldn't their shape at least partly be because that was what the creators wanted them to look like?

Except Adam had an identical body structure, core and all.

[n00dle]

True, I suppose.

[Reichu]

I didn't want to encourage the tangent at "Rei's Birth" any further.

SET-UP:

Rei falling apart in TD when she's there with Gendo (her arm falling off).

Possibly off-topic, but something I noticed just the other day when watching episode 19. Note how in battle, sho's arm reforms the exact same way as Rei's. Proof that Shogoki is indeed the bastard child of both seeds? I think so. ;)

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I've been kicking around that very idea myself. If you watch the regenerating eye in episode 2 it looks like LCL is involved, along with that bubbling process. Then you have the abnormal speed of the regeration comparied to the Angels. Sachiel took several hours and Israfel took a week, yet Yui does it in meer seconds.

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Well, also consider the extent of the injuries being regenerated and other circumstances. Sachiel and Israfel were both hit point blank by N2 mines, causing (somenumberIcan'tremember)% of their mass to be blown off. By comparison, Eva-01 lost an eyeball and broke a forearm. Then later, when she lost (nearly) a whole arm, she wasn't regenerating all by herself, she had a nice big hunk of raw material (courtesy of Zeruel) to assimilate.

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If you watch the regenerating eye in episode 2 it looks like LCL is involved,

But EVA-01 isn't made of LCL.

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No, but Sho might be made of Lilith's PWM, and Lilith contains LCL. So some of that magically delicious orange liquid might be in her too...

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AND FINALLY...

So some of that magically delicious orange liquid might be in her too...

In her core, yeah. This seems to be a standard Eva feature, though, if our "prototype" is any indication. Sho doesn't use LCL for blood as Mama does.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Sho doesn't use LCL for blood as Mama does.

Can we be sure of that?

I'm not sure what the relevence is anyway, but Sho's ability to regenerate does seem specially inherent in her, and without an S2 (until later on), I'm at a loss to explain how she does it.

[Opteron-O3]

That is rather strange...

Physically she is Adam based, but Spiritually (lack of better word) she is Lilith? But she grew from Lilith...? Wow...

[Reichu]

Can we be sure of that?

It looks like standard-issue vertebrate blood -- nice and reeeeeeed. Same as the blood of every other Eva (except EVA-02, who was victim to Kyoko's "artistic bioengineering") and Angel whose blood color is known (except for Sachiel).

Sho's ability to regenerate does seem specially inherent in her, and without an S2 (until later on), I'm at a loss to explain how she does it.

(A) Yui showing off her cool moves.
(B) Yui taking advantage of some Lilith-flesh quirk.
(C) Both.

Physically she is Adam based, but Spiritually (lack of better word) she is Lilith? But she grew from Lilith...? Wow...

"Spiritually she is Lilith?" As they say on the Interbutt -- "lolwut".

I'm not sure if people are aware (even though I say it from time-to-time), but the Adam connection / "Surrogate Daughter" t-h-e-o-r-y is something I introduced some years back to combat the "Lilith-clone" group-think. It tends to get batted around as fact a lot -- which, while flattering to my ego, is something that could always come back to haunt me. Eva Chronicle, I believe, says that the truth about our EVA-01 is unknown.

[Opteron-O3]

Yes I'm aware of the "theory", rather good, but it just seems like something isn't right... Can't quite put my finger on it.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Eva Chronicle, I believe, says that the truth about our EVA-01 is unknown.

Is that their own way of saying "We have no bloody clue, fanwank something"?

[NAveryW]

Alright, doesn't the Test Type OP (and, more fuzzily, the Reiquarium scene) actually *show* Unit 01 being cloned from Lilith? I think that, in itself, puts the question to rest as to the origin.

One could claim that it isn't necessarily Unit 01, but what else would it be?