Groupthink on the Boards?

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

At the risk of opening a very nasty can of worms, I'll proceed with opening the following thread. I'll ask posters in advance to try and keep the discussion as constructive and impersonal as possible. But nonetheless, do feel free to express your frank opinions, because that is what is being sought here.

At the moment, we are still in the process of laying proper foundations for the evageeks.org site. One of the things we'd like to ensure is that the community here is an open one, which people can be free to join and participate in.

It's come to my attention of late that not a few people are of the opinion that the old EMF boards, and hence the EGO boards, are somewhat dogmatic. That is to say, a dominant canon or interpretations hold sway, but more gravely, that alternative opinions are not welcome, or are dismissed.

I'd like to hear people's opinions on this, and on the general tone of the boards. Do you thinks site one in which people can feel free to express their opinions and to be given a fair hearing? Do you think groupthink prevails here, or are people free to reach their own conclusions?

Critique and debate are a part of forum discussion, so it is very difficult to curtail them without fundamentally altering the free and open nature of the boards. Nevertheless, I'd like to hear people's opinion of any problems with the current status quo, and any suggestions you might have on how it can be made better. Hopefully the ideas and debates in this discussion will help to give the site a better founding document.

Remember to please keep the discussion on topic, vitriol to a minimum, and flaming to PMs. With that said, please, state your opinions.

[BobBQ]

It's come to my attention of late that not a few people are of the opinion that the old EMF boards, and hence the EGO boards, are somewhat dogmatic. That is to say, a dominant canon or interpretations hold sway, but more gravely, that alternative opinions are not welcome, or are dismissed.

As far as I have seen, this has been coming from two small but vocal and somewhat overlapping factions.

The first consists of individuals who feel that they've been somehow slighted or wronged by the creators of some of the theories and memes which are prevalent here - Reichu seems to be the favorite target, but she isn't the only one - and spend much of their time making snide remarks about how we're all just engaging in intellectual masturbation and have no lives.

The second consists pretty much of one person - and you know who you are - who came here with several misconceptions, particularly on things which are more or less unopen to debate, strongly resisted attempts by other users to correct said misconceptions, became extremely hostile towards some really harmless and silly topics and engaged in a spree of trollish behavior and personal attacks against members who have never given said person cause for offense.

Neither of these malcontent units have tried to contribute anything significant to the serious discussions in recent memory, though some of the members in question are improving. If they want to see some fresh air circulating in the theoretical circles, perhaps they ought to stop whining and practice what they preach.

[V]

Major reason EG won't be dogmatic; I'm new, prolific, obessed and consumed, and yet I haven't had time to get into things here due to work. I'm not taking any of the old theories for granted (though to be honest I agree with many of them).


[joker]wait till they get a load of me....[/joker]

[SEELE 08]

It's come to my attention of late that not a few people are of the opinion that the old EMF boards, and hence the EGO boards, are somewhat dogmatic. That is to say, a dominant canon or interpretations hold sway, but more gravely, that alternative opinions are not welcome, or are dismissed.

As far as I have seen, this has been coming from two small but vocal and somewhat overlapping factions.

The first consists of individuals who feel that they've been somehow slighted or wronged by the creators of some of the theories and memes which are prevalent here - Reichu seems to be the favorite target, but she isn't the only one - and spend much of their time making snide remarks about how we're all just engaging in intellectual masturbation and have no lives.

The second consists pretty much of one person - and you know who you are - who came here with several misconceptions, particularly on things which are more or less unopen to debate, strongly resisted attempts by other users to correct said misconceptions, became extremely hostile towards some really harmless and silly topics and engaged in a spree of trollish behavior and personal attacks against members who have never given said person cause for offense.

Neither of these malcontent units have tried to contribute anything significant to the serious discussions in recent memory, though some of the members in question are improving. If they want to see some fresh air circulating in the theoretical circles, perhaps they ought to stop whining and practice what they preach.

I love you too sweet heart.

[Hexon.Arq]

...Reichu seems to be the favorite target, but she isn't the only one - and spend much of their time making snide remarks about how we're all just engaging in intellectual masturbation and have no lives.

Well? Is it true?

[BrikHaus]

For the longest time I have been of the opinion that there are three groups that populated this forum. The Fanwankers, the Anti-Fanwankers, and Everybody Else. The Fanwankers seem to be moderatey sized, and certainly the most vocal when it comes to discussing the "canon" of Eva. The Anti-Fanwankers are the smallest group, and attempt, often in vain, to reign in the hypotheses of the Fanwankers. Everybody Else, the largest group, falls somewhere in the middle, sometimes going with "outlandish" Fanwanker ideas and sometimes going with "realistic" Anti-Fanwanking ones.

Unfortunate as it may be, there is a strong dogma here on this forum. Whenever a new member enters they will invariably ask questions regarding topics that have already been discussed to death (e.g. who's soul is in Eva-00). Almost immediately, it seems, some Fanwankers will come out and chastise the newcomer for being lazy and not searching for the answers on their own. Or, the newcomer may propose their own hypothesis, completely oblivious to the Fanwanker canon. If their new ideas contradict established hypotheses, they are (usually) immediately dismissed by the Fanwankers. The Fanwankers seem to think that because they have seen the show many times, or that they have been on the board a long time, or that they have a high post count, it means that their input is somehow more meaningful. These are the people that seem to make the board the most inhospitable for new members, or even to established members that may come up with a new hypothesis for something. To me, it seems that Fanwankers are completely unwilling to entertain any new ideas whatsoever, unless a new idea comes from within their own circle. To them, it would seem a great tragedy to have to reanalyze a hypothesis they have already passed judgment on. Sadly, this is probably the most vocal group on the forum, and subsequently make it extremely difficult for new members to feel welcome.

The Anti-Fanwankers can sometimes be no better. At times it seems as if their sole purpose is to make life difficult for the Fanwankers. Someone may make an intelligent post about the significance of something seemingly innocuous (e.g. the color of Gendou's glasses), only to have it immediately, and somewhat hastily, ripped apart by the Anti-Fanwankers. They usually cite the Fanwankers as trying to think too hard about stuff that really isn't there. Sometimes they may instigate verbal fighting matches against the Fanwankers, which does no good, and only leads to the locking of threads. They, too, can be very unaccepting of newcomers, if said newcomer falls, perhaps even marginally, into the Fanwanker group. This makes it difficult for newcomers to post their theories out of fear that it will immediately be dismissed as incorrect. However, the Anti-Fanwankers do serve a very important purpose, namely by shooting down nearly every single Fanwanking hypothesis, they are able to force the Fanwankers not to get too carried away. Of course, it is possible that many lurkers have witnessed the spats between the two groups, and, as a result, decided not to join the forum.

The Fanwankers vs. Anti-Fanwankers fights break out sporadically across the forum. They never accomplish anything, except for hurting feelings, or painting one another in an unfair, and probably undeserved light. These two groups may hate each other in the online universe, but if they were to meet in real life they would probably be friends. To see someone's body language and facial expressions would go a long way in helping to understand when someone is just kidding around or being serious.

Let me just say something to all three groups. Please be accepting of new members. If they ask a question that has been asked a thousand times before, don't immediately insult them. It's not their fault that you've been watching Eva for years and already know all the answers. There is never any justification for impoliteness, regardless of how many times someone has asked if Naoko is in Unit-00. We are all at varying levels of experience and comprehension of Eva. Therefore, we should always strive to respect one another. If someone has a new hypothesis that does not fit into your canon, do not immediately shoot it down. If you read it and think about it, you may discover something new. This can be of benefit to everyone. Being indignant, on the other hand, helps no one. If you feel the need to insult new or established members simply because their beliefs on Eva are different than your own, then perhaps it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate some things. After all, it's just a cartoon. Don't take it so seriously.

[DatDude]

@ BrikHaus I agree with everything you said.

[chee]

I have indeed noticed a bit of dogmatism here. I myself have been guilty of it in the past, I admit.

Oh, and what BrikHaus said.

EDIT: Okay, more than a bit.

[V]

"Ever when we argue amongst each other, Sauron laughs. All the words you speak have already been spoken!" --Gandalf @ Council of Elrond

Unfortunate as it may be, there is a strong dogma here on this forum. Whenever a new member enters they will invariably ask questions regarding topics that have already been discussed to death (e.g. who's soul is in Eva-00). Almost immediately, it seems, some Fanwankers will come out and chastise the newcomer for being lazy and not searching for the answers on their own. Or, the newcomer may propose their own hypothesis, completely oblivious to the Fanwanker canon.

This is EXACTLY why the Evapedia is being forged; so instead of endless fan debate and "new fans asking simple questions for the Nth time", we've got it all layed out and explained.

There are two courses of action:

1 - Try to develop a definitive information set about certain topics. Or at the least, "narrow it down" to an easy to understand fast explanation; i.e. Soul in Eva 00 = "probably Rei 1, outside chance of Naoko but such and such kind of refutes that, etc"

2 - Continue fighting for our right to bicker back and forth endlessly, any attempt at coming to a "definitive" answer or even "Comprehensive description of all alternate theories" being utterly abandoned...and resigning ourselves to simple arguing about stuff forever with no resolution; the same old arguements hissing and chattering away at each other in the dark until they fall out of thought and memory. Let that be your Last Battlefield.


I've cast my lot with "option 1"



Of course EvaMonkeyForums felt a bit dogmatic, years passed without any truly NEW material and thus the old discussions would get a bit rusty. This happens with any discussion forum about a show which has been over for a long time. EvaGeeksForums, coinciding with Rebuild of Evangelion, is a fresh start, shaking off the old atrophy and breathing new life into the discussion.

[Defectron]

The Fanwankers, the Anti-Fanwankers, and Everybody Else

And I fall into the fourth catigory because I fanwank and antifanwank on a regular basis. Yes its true, I've been providing arms to both sides in this war!
I like to make theories about eva based off of little evidence and I also like shooting down theories about eva based on little evidence. Yeah that's where it's at!

[TriLink]

One long essay on the different groups populating our forum

Pay the man Shirley...

[CitizenGeek]

The second consists pretty much of one person - and you know who you are - who came here with several misconceptions, particularly on things which are more or less unopen to debate, strongly resisted attempts by other users to correct said misconceptions, became extremely hostile towards some really harmless and silly topics and engaged in a spree of trollish behavior and personal attacks against members who have never given said person cause for offense.

OMF, if you're looking for proof of the dogmatic, hostile and somewhat bitter attitude some of the members here have, look no further than BobBQ's post in this thread. He is a prime example of why I think it's difficult to integrate into this forum.

Sure, I came here with some miconceptions, but the reason I came here was to learn about Evangelion, not force my preconceptions on anyone or even to theorise. A lot of people were, and still are, quite hostile. BobBQ even continues to call me a troll. That's the kind of behaviour that is not conducive to having a friendly environment on these forums. BobBQ has lied about me several times there. He says I didn't want to be corrected, which is a blatent lie, he also says I personally attacked a number of members, another complete lie. He's pushing these unfounded attacks because I happen to know less about Evangelion than him, and happen to dislike the almighty Yui meme and how certain people's opinions are taken as fact 'round these parts. I don't want to argue with BobBQ, but he is an example of what's wrong with this forum in regards to facilitating new members, such behaviour proves this.

Unfortunate as it may be, there is a strong dogma here on this forum. Whenever a new member enters they will invariably ask questions regarding topics that have already been discussed to death (e.g. who's soul is in Eva-00). Almost immediately, it seems, some Fanwankers will come out and chastise the newcomer for being lazy and not searching for the answers on their own. Or, the newcomer may propose their own hypothesis, completely oblivious to the Fanwanker canon. If their new ideas contradict established hypotheses, they are (usually) immediately dismissed by the Fanwankers. The Fanwankers seem to think that because they have seen the show many times, or that they have been on the board a long time, or that they have a high post count, it means that their input is somehow more meaningful. These are the people that seem to make the board the most inhospitable for new members, or even to established members that may come up with a new hypothesis for something. To me, it seems that Fanwankers are completely unwilling to entertain any new ideas whatsoever, unless a new idea comes from within their own circle. To them, it would seem a great tragedy to have to reanalyze a hypothesis they have already passed judgment on. Sadly, this is probably the most vocal group on the forum, and subsequently make it extremely difficult for new members to feel welcome.

Well said, BrikHaus! I would also like to add that this is completely true in my own personal experience.

Let me just say something to all three groups. Please be accepting of new members. If they ask a question that has been asked a thousand times before, don't immediately insult them. It's not their fault that you've been watching Eva for years and already know all the answers. There is never any justification for impoliteness, regardless of how many times someone has asked if Naoko is in Unit-00. We are all at varying levels of experience and comprehension of Eva. Therefore, we should always strive to respect one another. If someone has a new hypothesis that does not fit into your canon, do not immediately shoot it down. If you read it and think about it, you may discover something new. This can be of benefit to everyone. Being indignant, on the other hand, helps no one. If you feel the need to insult new or established members simply because their beliefs on Eva are different than your own, then perhaps it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate some things. After all, it's just a cartoon. Don't take it so seriously.

Again, very well said. Unforetunately, I fear this solution will fall on deaf ears, as illustrated by a certain member's attitude in this very thread. I think the mods need to step in and deal with the issue, although a lot of them seem to be wholly sympathic to the so-called "fanwanker" group, and not very fond of "everybody else" and the "anti-fanwankers".

I, for one, definately appreciate this action, OMF. It's good that you are acknowledging this problem (something I doubt would have happenend on EMF) and actually opening a discussion on it.

[Mr. Tines]

There seem to be certain pairs of users who, on some topics at least, always make a bad combination.

Then a high number of people have their tact filters ( http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html ) in the "geek" setting.

[BobBQ]

OMGWTFBBQ IS LYING TO ME

Spare us the martyric angst; the only person lying to you is yourself.

I was hoping the people at whom my original thoughts were aimed would respond with something useful, but as usual it seems I shouldn't have gotten my hopes up.

Since OMF has asked that this be kept civil, I will merely say Quod Erat Demonstrandum and leave it at that.

[CitizenGeek]

Spare us the martyric angst; the only person lying to you is yourself.

And you can spare us the usual melodrama, BobBQ.

I was hoping the people at whom my original thoughts were aimed would respond with something useful, but as usual it seems I shouldn't have gotten my hopes up.

This is yet another example of the kind of post-count hierarchy that BobBQ seems to favor. He thinks he can call me a "troll" and suggest that SEELE 08 is useless and then expect us, members with lower post counts, to be glad we've been honoured with "advice" and to attempt to extract some sort of meaning that isn't even present. And at the same time, BobBQ completely ignores the good points that BrikHaus made, and that everyone else agreed with.

If a new member behaved like BobBQ, they wouldn't last too long, but BobBQ gets away with it - why?

Since OMF has asked that this be kept civil, I will merely say Quod Erat Demonstrandum and leave it at that.

Pretentiously using Latin isn't going to disguise the fact that you never made a case, and never concluded it - EGF's users are smarter than that, I think!

Alas, I don't want to bicker in this thread, but the point still stands - people like BobBQ make this forum inaccesible to new forum members, specifically those who want to fully engage with the forums.

[Sailor Star Dust]

The only thing I want to say is that I sincerely hope that FGP's forum (No, I don't want to spell out the acronym because of what it says; that's something this is trying NOT to have, right? ;) (Ego)) is a fresh start because there really isn't any need for flame wars, fighting between Eva-Analyzers/Fanwankers/Anti-Fanwankers/Everybody Else because we're all just trying to make sense of Eva together.

If FGP really IS going to be the Eva site to end all Eva sites when it comes to making sure people understand just WTF is going on, we all need to act respectful and mature towards ALL members here, new and old.

After all, where will fighting get us besides pointless hate and anger?


And V, I love the Gandalf quote you used.

[SEELE 08]

Spare us the martyric angst; the only person lying to you is yourself.

And you can spare us the usual melodrama, BobBQ.

I was hoping the people at whom my original thoughts were aimed would respond with something useful, but as usual it seems I shouldn't have gotten my hopes up.

This is yet another example of the kind of post-count hierarchy that BobBQ seems to favor. He thinks he can call me a "troll" and suggest that SEELE 08 is useless and then expect us, members with lower post counts, to be glad we've been honoured with "advice" and to attempt to extract some sort of meaning that isn't even present. And at the same time, BobBQ completely ignores the good points that BrikHaus made, and that everyone else agreed with.

If a new member behaved like BobBQ, they wouldn't last too long, but BobBQ gets away with it - why?

Since OMF has asked that this be kept civil, I will merely say Quod Erat Demonstrandum and leave it at that.

Pretentiously using Latin isn't going to disguise the fact that you never made a case, and never concluded it - EGF's users are smarter than that, I think!

Alas, I don't want to bicker in this thread, but the point still stands - people like BobBQ make this forum inaccesible to new forum members, specifically those who want to fully engage with the forums.

I'm not useless i'm...full of good qualities! I'm an excellent troll!

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

People have raised some very good points, and I think I'll throw in a few myself here. BrikHaus in particular has made an interesting observation with his "fanwankers", anti-fanwankers" and "others". I'll refer to these groups as "analysts", "skeptics" and "others" for now.

To begin with, as Defectron notes, there is not a sharp divide between analysts and skeptics, and indeed, people can and do these interchange roles in discussions all the time. People do have a right to be skeptical about theories they regard as dubious, and to have their reservations given a fair hearing. People also have a right to propose new theories or interpretations and for these to be given a fair hearing.

This site should not have a dogma, and I'm concerned that this is seen to be the case. Certainly, many theories have been debated extensively, and reasonably solid conclusions and interpretations have been reached on many issues. Such theories be very persuasive, have been subjected to much debate and peer review. They make much sense to many and are held as a good interpretation of the show. That said, much remains speculative, with many interpretations being held by only tenuous evidence, and largely for the sake of internal consistency. Much analysis exists for the purpose of making the show "make sense", i.e. to be internally consistent, and often needs to be highly speculative to achieve this. I think to best avoid the onset of Dogma, where theories are speculative, this should be acknowledged.

Skepticism is an important element of the boards, indeed, just as important as analysis. Skeptics are needed to challenge weak theories and interpretations and to generally reign in excessive speculation by analysts. However, skeptics should not be so zealous that they nip new theories in the bud, or discourage posters from carrying their ideas further. Certainly, flaws and inconsistencies should be pointed out, but I think the labelling of certain analysis as foolish or too speculative is being too closed minded. People engage in even very speculative Evangelion discussion often simply for fun, to explore ideas well past the boundaries of the show. Sometimes, we get lucky, and a speculative thread can find good ground in the show, and ideas debated in it can help us better understand fundamental and important concepts inside. Mostly however, it's just entertaining and engaging for those involved, almost purely as a form of leisure. While it's important for skeptics to point out the flaws in any hypothesises, they should try not to be so skeptical as to be disillusioned or dismissive of the entire process of analysis.

My worries are that the analysts may be too dogmatic, and the skeptics too dismissive. I think perhaps such problems are not a very great issue at the moment(I could be wrong), though they are visible enough for people to comment on them. I think essentially the problems mentioned amount to a little too much closed mindedness on the boards. The board in general needs to be an open minded community and debating forum.

The issues of Trolling and Antagonism are as old as the internet itself, possibly even older than that. As always, people should avoid ad hominem or personal attacks, and trolling, and also feeding the trolls, should be kept off the forum entirely. Time honoured techniques and principles are of course in use on this board, and even in this very thread, so I think on such matters, we are already well supplied with a firm but fair brigade of moderators who can deal with them appropriately.Their methods may sometimes be subtle.

Having said that, threads can and often should be vigorous, especially when it comes to analysis topics. Reasonably thick skins are a tacit prerequisite for engaging in any kind of debate, and I don't think it would be right to restrict peoples freedoms on the boards with the aim of sparing tender feelings. However, if the atmosphere is too caustic, newer and existing members could be driven away. Clearly, some kind of a balance must be achieved with regard to where the line between vigorous debate and flame war actually exists.The line is likely not static and quite probably fractal in nature.

This is a fan site, and participation here is essentially a hobby for everyone involved, sometimes a very big hobby for some. Everyone is here to pass their free time, have fun, and share their appreciation, interest and enthusiasm for Evangelion. We're not trying to build a magical kingdom though, and the occasional cut or bruise may be had by some, but overall the site needs to be a place people come back to, and where people actually want to spend their free time.

We're trying to make the site better in any way we can, and as the community is the true backbone of the whole site, we need it to be a healthy one. I'd like to thank people for their inputs, and I'd encourage anyone to continue and add more if they feel it is required. Again, try and keep things firmly ontopic and not on your fellow posters.

With that, on with the posting.

[Trigger's Elysium]

I guess I fall into "a little of column a, a little of column b", or the dudes inbetween. Brik had a pretty fair analysis that I mostly agree with.

I think that the "fanwankers" sometimes go to far with their hypothesises, yeah. But I also think that the "anti-fanwankers" can get way, way, way too up in arms about things that are simply theories/speculation. I understand that they find it unfair that some of the theories or whatever start blurring the oh so ill defined canon line, but I think it's important to understand that a lot of this stuff is merely "generally reknowned and accepted". The Theory of Evolution is widely accepted, and it's just a theory, but then again, it's a theory about actual biology and history and the aforementioned theories are about an anime made by some dude. It's a very complicated issue.

That said I think some certain people from both the aggresive "factions" should stop taking everything so seriously precisely because this is discussion about an anime.

tl;dr I really didn't have much to add

[BobBQ]

This is yet another example of the kind of post-count hierarchy that BobBQ seems to favor.

I don't look at post counts. Hell, half the forums I'm on don't even have them.

He thinks he can call me a "troll" and suggest that SEELE 08 is useless...

I said no such thing, oh ye who clutches at straws. What I said was certain people, her included, were not contributing anything useful to the discussion, a statement which still applies at the time of this writing.

...and then expect us, members with lower post counts, to be glad we've been honoured with "advice" and to attempt to extract some sort of meaning that isn't even present.

No. I expect you to pay attention to what I say because I've been here much longer than you and know how things work here, never mind that I moderate a much bigger forum than this.

As for meanings, the only meanings I can recall emphasizing are those which I have been able to personally confirm are supported by the episode transcripts available to me, and those which are silly and harmless.

And at the same time, BobBQ completely ignores the good points that BrikHaus made, and that everyone else agreed with.

I am perfectly aware of Brik's contribution, thank you. Absence of answer is not absence of attention.

If a new member behaved like BobBQ, they wouldn't last too long, but BobBQ gets away with it - why?

Number one: I didn't go out of my way to piss people off when I came here.

Number two: I earned any respect I may carry the hard way, like all the others.

Number three: I'm the Tenant of Room 404.

That was a joke, in case it wasn't obvious.

Pretentiously using Latin isn't going to disguise the fact that you never made a case, and never concluded it - EGF's users are smarter than that, I think!

Don't call me pretentious for using a language I studied for two years. Si Caesar viveret, ad remum dareris et cetera.

My case was that people like you complain a lot and don't offer anything better than that which you attack, and both you and S08 responded in exactly the manner I described, thereby proving my point. QED again.

Alas, I don't want to bicker in this thread, but the point still stands - people like BobBQ make this forum inaccesible to new forum members, specifically those who want to fully engage with the forums.

Gee, why don't you ask the members who joined after you if they feel that way? I don't see them complaining that I stifle their interactions.

When you first came here, I assumed you'd pick up on things pretty quickly. Some, like the matter of who killed Kaji, you did eventually get. Others, like Yui's role in NGE, you still reject for reasons which I cannot fathom. The situation degraded pretty quickly, especially after DatDude and Seele08 marked you as a soft target and tried to use you like Western Union used Elisha Gray against Alexander Bell. I believe I pointed out their motives clearly enough, but the message evidently didn't get through.

After that, I let myself get dragged into a long argument, in large part posting in defense of members who were not here to speak for themselves, during which you began to alternate between suck-up comments about how much you "respected" me and thought I was "clever" and attacks on the silliest things we have to offer. After a while, I cooled down and backed off, making conciliatory gestures. I really thought I'd managed to get my point across and that you'd rely a little less on kick-over-the-table tactics and be a little more understanding, but instead you decided that anyone who disagrees with you is a liar and started attacking not only myself, but also users like Sailor Star Dust, which I find completely inexcusable.

At this point, it is painfully obvious that my arguments - well-intentioned, I assure you, albeit perhaps more abrasive than is proper - have fallen on plugged ears. While I would honestly like very much to see you contribute something meaningful to our discussions, I don't hold much hope for such an outcome.

The matter is now closed; whatever happens to you after this is your own problem. If you are still convinced that I'm a menace to the rookies, then by all means go and make a topic about it somewhere else.

---

Moving on to something that is useful, OMF has laid out his thoughts very well. Practically speaking, I think I'm largely in the "other" category. While I definitely stick up for those in the fanwank group whom I agree with, I'm not much of a contributor myself; all I have to offer is the Mikasa Hinako theory, and it's pretty much a forgone conclusion that it won't get much support even after I get around to officially proposing it.