Everyone's favorite manga topic (again)

[Xard]

I definitely liked it more than the original series, they really made it much more serious. I still like Sadamoto's vision more, but this is nice.

Phail, Sadamoto has perfect art direction but

1. his storytelling sucks in comparison ( Anno= master in cinema, Sadamoto = above average in manga but far from masterful in this media)
2. it has no innovative storytelling elements in it
3. it has many hamfisted scenes (ReiXShinji mostly)
4. ReiXShinji thing fucked everything up. It is also cliched and shit anyway (Rei's character ain't original, way he is handled in anime is. Manga screws this up too )
7. Manga-Asuka sucks (horrible horrible horrible horrible)
8. All other character development changes were overall worse (Sadamoto's focus on stupid, badly handed ShinjiXRei = other character interaction is lessened)
9. Evil manga-Kaworu
10. MANGA-SHINJI ITSELF IS ENOUGH REASON TO DOOM THE EFFORT


What Sadamoto does well:

1. Good art direction/art (no Ep 11 stuff)
2. More cohesive and less fillery
3. "Shinji does not know it is Touji"-plotpoint not stressed ad infinitum (but killing Touji negates most of the good aspects in this decision)
4. Misato with Pen-Pen in recreation of Ep 4 train station scene is better


In the end however manga loses so bad (and I started with it btw) :/

I agree what you said about RoE though

[Victorthebattousai]

Lol, to each his own, as they say. I still think it's better, and you can say whatever you like. I personally liked Manga Shinji FAR more, more of a man in some places, and he acts more "Real".

I thought "Evil"(Though he wasn't "Evil", not in that sense) Kaworu was again, MUCH better.

Anno=Fool in Cinema. Putting in lots of pointless symbols, and simply trying to freak out your audience, does NOT make you some master of anything. His anime had many great features, but he is no master, by far. His chars were good, and there were some other good elements, but overall the storyline had no true meaning(but you guys like to make it out like there was, and that's OK).

I thought almost all of the ReiXShinji scenes were really well done, very sweet. Much better than the laughable moments such as the entire Magmadiver ep for AsukaXShinji, the Hospital scene, and dozens of others.

And I personally LOVE Manga Asuka. I think she's great! Although some(SOME) of her developement was sped up a lil too fast in some areas.

As I said, it comes down to an opinion.

[UrsusArctos]

By the way, it's Ka-wo-ru, not Kaworu!

And Evil Kaworu was far too obnoxious. Shinji's relationship with Rei is rather inconsistent- if he's in love with her, why is he so afraid of facing her after the Rei clone tank incident? In the Manga, he's manly enough to know that he needs to face her and accept his feelings. (Of course, Anime-Shinji being afraid made perfect sense, given his character and his feelings towards Rei)

Asuka in the Manga is "Aryan Asuka", more of the product of the Third Reich than the modern world.

[Victorthebattousai]

Lol, I always misspell Kaworu. It's a miracle I even get close to spelling it. Anyway, I never liked him in the first place lol, so the fact that he's more obnoxious doesn't bug me in the least.

Anyway, I think the reason he's scared is because this Rei isn't the same as the last. This one's even colder, and even less emotional than the second was to begin with. I'd be pretty scared of this one, too.

"I love you, Rei."
"Why?"
"Uhm.....Cuz ur hawt."

Wow, Aryan Asuka? Never quiet saw it like that. I've always liked this Asuka, AND the one from the Anime.

Anyway, people have talked about the ReiXShinji thing before, and personally, I don't think he's setting it up for a "Love" love type thing. I think he's setting them up to be really close friends rather than lovers. But I'm not sure. Will have to wait until the thing ENDS.(My only thing against Sadamoto. He takes WAY too long)

Anyway, this is all way off topic, considering this is for Rebuild info.

[Enki v.2]

Bah. I like both, but I prefer the manga in many ways. For one, I am not sure Shinji and Asuka make a good match at all (an interesting match, with a lot of passion, but if Rei wasn't around, they'd kill each other), and so I prefer manga Asuka because she is (for once) a version of Asuka who *could* work it out with Shinji -- which makes the pairing work a bit more. She's more... human... as opposed to some kind of splicing of Faust and a flesh-eating demon. Also, the art was *much* better in the manga, and I personally prefer Sadamoto's perspective on personality... It may not be correct, but it's a lot easier to handle, and a lot easier to display. Sadamoto's dialogue is like what would happen if the dialog from the series was replaced with what the characters actually *wanted* to say.

On to the negatives: way fewer references, less postmodernism, far more serious for the most part (comparatively little humour), manga action sequences (I can *never* get the hang of those, which is why I don't read action manga usually), and odd variants on the art (the female characters, while pretty, have been made with absurd proportions; Rei and Asuka have the BMI of plastic Zerogoki figurines, and about half the waist size of a tennis ball).

So, eh. It's 50/50. It seems like Rebuild is correcting many of the flaws of both, so I'm happy.

[Xard]

Anno=Fool in Cinema.

Please come back after watching following titles:

Gunbuster (nigh-flawless after two first eps and possibly best ending ever )

Kare Kano

Shiki-Jitsu (his second Live-action film and in many aspects superior to his other works. Won Best Artistic Contribution award at Tokyo International Film Festival and is loved by many people. It is in my Top 10 films too, marvelous piece from cinematography to storytelling and acting. )

Nadia is very flawed piece but it too contains some brilliant parts and overall is good effort. Love&Pop earned him his "Best New Director Award" (as it did Best New Talent for Asumi Miwa) and it is rather good work but it too has quite many flaws (cinema veritege taken too far simply)

As far as cinematography goes Anno is hard to rival as Shiki-Jitsu shows better than all other works. He has mastered usage of "pillow shots" in rather similar way to legendary Ozu, his unique camerawork is truly masterful as is his command over pacing and cutting.

And Anno actually knows how to direct actors/seyuus and most of the time experimental elements in his titles work e.g heavy Godardesqueness in Eva's latter half and its numerous visual motifs, black-whiteness of Gunbusters final episode, long, lurking shots in Shikijitsu and its animated sequences... under "partially working" I place Love&Pop weirdness.

From EoE alone I can immeaditly come up with three, perfect scenes in their pacing, cutting, camerawork, acting etc.

- Final scene is absolutely perfect and IMO is best ending scene ever.
- Shinji's and Asuka's confrontation and strangulation during pre-Instrumentality
- The weird and postmodern scene of the show aka little Shinji in the sandbox.

Those three are first ones that came to my mind but there are many more in EoE's latter half alone. When we start to encompass more stuff (whole EoE, series itself...) list just gets longer, longer and longer.

Really, compare Ep 7 breakfast/morning scene's pacing, cutting and camerausage to random anime from 90's (or large bulk of todays for that matter) and you see huge difference in skill even in such mundane scene.

(after all this rampant defending I have to say Anno has his share of flaws too, but he is auteur in genius meaning of the word, propably with exception of Miyazaki only one in anime. Sometimes his auteurism works for the worse but most of the time it does just the opposite)

One doesn't have to like Evangelion but labelling Anno bad director would be like saying Salvador Dali can't paint.

but overall the storyline had no true meaning (but you guys like to make it out like there was, and that's OK).

This alone negates any point you might've had and shows you have no understanding or knowledge of show's creation or its creators, varying intentions behind it or, well, anything related to it that isn't just surface values.

Again, I must strech this point that is as true as it always has been:


One aspect of show is pretentious and meaningless =/= show is pretentious and meaningless.

Putting in lots of pointless symbols, and simply trying to freak out your audience

Newsflash: Obscure, pointless symbols and references seem to be besetting sin of anime and it has been around well before Eva

Newsflash: There was quite a nice deal of biblical symbolism and references in Nadia too (thus Gainax's aptitude to them prolly should be put on/blamed on Kaoru Umeno )

Newsflash: If I remember correctly one who came up with idea of using judeochristian symbolism was Sadamoto (or Tsurumaki, but I'm rather sure it was Sadamoto). Or someone else like Umeno. Anyway it wasn't Anno. Sadamoto also came up with and lobbied for PenPen who is largerly responsible for silly/goofy stuff in the show.

As I said, it comes down to an opinion.

In the end everything comes down to opinion. Doesn't change Platon's classical "Alethes doksa meta logu" which translates to "Truth is well argued honest belief".

I personally liked Manga Shinji FAR more, more of a man in some places, and he acts more "Real".

There are countless topics on the matter to be found. Shinji in the manga isn't any more "real" than his anime counterpart. Just much more generic and thus boring. With anger and attitude problems.

I thought "Evil"(Though he wasn't "Evil", not in that sense) Kaworu was again, MUCH better.

*facepalm*

Yes indeed, all the fanservice and killing kittens stuff was so great. Way Sadamoto "handled" Kaworu made latter Ep 24 parts of the manga awkward and stupid (and then they had to insert Kaworu's "bla bla bla this is SEELE idelogy listen to me bla bla bla it is supposed to get you into similar state as in EoE bla bla we screwed over storyline and character development and thus this is only way to bail out bla bla and save the plot bla bla" )

Wow, Aryan Asuka? Never quiet saw it like that. I've always liked this Asuka, AND the one from the Anime.

Similar to Manga-Shinji this subject too has many topics around it. Sadamoto basically slaughtered the character and moved her out of the picture as much as was possible, due to him not getting into her character. *sigh*

This, too, was filled with stupid ReiXShinji stuff (same happened with Misato and everyone else except for Kaji)

Anyway, people have talked about the ReiXShinji thing before, and personally, I don't think he's setting it up for a "Love" love type thing.

He was, that much has always been clear with his rampant Rei fanboyism et al. ( That also seemed to be how the story would go in anime version too early on. Luckily it was just face value in anime )

"Unfortunately" production of anime reached Ep 23 and there was no way Sadamoto could save Rei after that without rewriting whole rest of the storyline again. Ergo most recent problems with manga (and completely nonsensical "i want 2 protect u Asuka 2" that was seen couple of stages ago. If manga ends similarly to EoE then we have got crowning masterpiece of bad character development )

I could go on and on but there are already numerous topics about bitching about manga version, especially about its character stupidities (poor, poor Gendo in this regard)

I'm not saying manga isn't good (which it is, partly even very good) but that's all. It is just good. Not revolutionary, marvelous, genious or shatterng piece of art. Just good. I initially too preferred manga but over the time I've come to see how by far inferior it is to its anime counterpart


edit: Damn I forgot totally the ReiXShinji criticism

[Victorthebattousai]

Lol, whatever floats your boat, man.

[Indigo Arcangel]

I liked the manga. Not as good as the anime, but if it were to get in a boxing match with the anime, it would definately be able to dislodge its jaw and a few teeth before being punched to the floor.

Sadamoto's art is brilliant. Sadamoto's Shinji, I actually liked in some ways - he was slightly more realistic - life has turned him cynical and angry, but on the inside, he has some big insecurities (to the point of being a gnostic on occasion).

Rei is pretty much the same, as far as I can see. If she is in any way different, well, I don't beleive I have the right to disapprove of it - Rei is Sadamoto's pet character, and it's hardly surprising that there's hintings of romantic potential.

As for Asuka - honestly, I really don't see what the fuss is about. Since Rei is now the romantic focus, Asuka turns into a friend figure, which I think suits her character well. She's practicaly the same, and I have no idea why others say otherwise. She could kick arse before, she can kick arse now - just more professionally. No problems with the test-tube baby thing, either - I thought it was a nice touch actually.

I can't really comment on EMK, cause I haven't read the manga any farther than his infamous kitty-killing scene, but he serves a much larger purpose in this version, and I like that.

Finally, there are the little touches and divergences. For example, Shinji discovering Lilith by accident. Kaji helping Shinji remember his reppressed memories of his mother's demise. Kaji's/Pen2's backstories revealed, etc.

Quite frankly, I actually feel that the anime would have been better if it had incorporated some elements from the manga, and I damn well hope that Rebuild rectifies that.

[Sailor Star Dust]

I pretty much agree with everything Xard said in his first post. And since I ranted about the manga so many times before, I don't really feel like doing it again. ;)

[Victorthebattousai]

I actually would have posted a much more well thought post earlier, but I had work.

Anyway, no, I shouldn't have said Anno was a fool(That was sleepy+anger towards Anno talking) He's a good director in many aspects, a lot fo the ones you were talking about as well. But, I can't call him a master, because I am still torn overall as to my feelings on Evangelion. Many great aspects, but many poor ones, too.

And you're not listening. I said the story has no meaning, not the series. Let's face it, the story HAS no meaning, unless you get meaning from the idea that aliens came from space, gave birth to us and other aliens, and now we're fighting. And that's the OVERALL story in a nutshell. Now, that doesn't mean different aspects of the series as a whole have no meaning, but the story itself is rather half baked. Aspects such as Rei's emotions due to her creation, Shinji's complexes, Gendo's relationship with Rei and Shinji, these and others have meaning. But these aren't part of the overall story.

No, I don't believe it was Sadamoto(though I know it wasn't Anno, either). I can't remember the name now, though Tsurumaki rings a bell somewhere, but it's been so long. But, in the end, it was Anno's decision to put it in, one way or another, unless Gainax forced the decision(A good possibility, too). And a little silly/Goofy is great. The show needs at least a little bit of silly. A lil bit can go a long way.

As far as Shinji goes, no, I'd say the Manga version is far closer to a real person. Real young men don't pleasure themselves over comatose girls, no matter how depressed. That's just one example. Now, this isn't to say that Anime Shinji is bad, or better, or worse. I just prefer Manga Shinji because he is more normal.

As far as Koworu goes, that's a simple matter of opinion. I thought his nonchalant , cold, calculating personality was fitting. But that's not to say he was better than Anime version, it had it's perks too. Up to personal opinion there. As far as the Seele's ideas go, he did pretty much the same thing in Ep 24 of the anime.

I agree with the last post. The only reason Asuka seams to be a lesser character is because her position has changed. Now she's a friend, rather than love interest(Well, maybe "Love Interest" is going a tad....Ok, a rather large tad, too far). I don't mind either role for Asuka. Maybe a part of your reasoning is because your a fan of Asuka, and would rather see AsukaXShinji, eh? This idea is also supported by your statement "That also seemed to be how the story would go in the Anime version too early on. Luckily it was just face value in the anime". You obviously don't like the idea of ReiXShinji, thus you have a predisposition to AsukaXShinji.

As I said, almost everything comes down to our own personal preferences. You can moan and ***** all day long about what you think are problems with the manga, but in the end, I'd say most of it is just your own personal preferences about Evangelion. And that's fine. That's part of what made Eva good, because so much was left for the individual viewer to decide. But don't go around trying to say that you're way is the true way.

[RandomStuff]

The manga was the first Eva media I read [Except Angelic Days, doesn't really count] so I'm kinda predjudiced towards on par or better with the original work.
Maybe I just want to see Shinji actually hit Gendo.

[Victorthebattousai]

And that's fine. I have always liked FF8 over FF7. But both were amazing games, quality-wise. I just liked 1 more than the other.

All of us have our own reasons for liking one thing more than another. That's natural.

[CorporalChaos]

The manga was the first Eva media I read [Except Angelic Days, doesn't really count] so I'm kinda predjudiced towards on par or better with the original work.
Maybe I just want to see Shinji actually hit Gendo.

For the most part, the anime is the original work. I mean, here we are, 12 years after the show finished airing, and we're just getting to EoE in the manga.

[Reichu]

Whatever fundamentally drew me to NGE in the first place and has managed to keep me interested, I don't think the manga has it.

[Victorthebattousai]

The manga was the first Eva media I read [Except Angelic Days, doesn't really count] so I'm kinda predjudiced towards on par or better with the original work.
Maybe I just want to see Shinji actually hit Gendo.

For the most part, the anime is the original work. I mean, here we are, 12 years after the show finished airing, and we're just getting to EoE in the manga.

That's what he was saying. He's prejudiced towards the idea that it's(The manga) as good, or better, than the original work, the anime.

What drew me to Eva was the chars. That's why I like the Manga so much, I just like how they are developed in it.

[Mr. Tines]

What drew me to Eva was the chars. That's why I like the Manga so much, I just like how they are developed in it.

Replace "like" with "dislike" throughout and you have the majority opinion.

Manga Asuka is just the shallow perpetually PMS-ing bitch that she superficially appears to be in the anime, with none of the inner conflicts that are brought out in the anime. The misreading of her in the crucial episodes -- the night together in "Dance like you both want to Win"; the replacement for the kiss scene of "secrets and lies"; even her mind-rape -- is pretty painful to behold. And the replacement for SFAiBL is just a joke.

It is so blatantly obvious from his work elsewhere that Sadamoto has taken a handful of the blue pills, and has tried to write the manga in the main as if this unsuitable interloper had not arrived on the scene. Unfortunately for him, this is not Eureka Seven.

[majlund]

Well said, Mr.Tines.

[Enki v.2]

To be honest, I thought the manga-Asuka was more of a fit for Shinji than the anime-Asuka. Maybe it's just me, but somehow, I think that a less abusive, more honestly-outgoing Asuka might actually work out, whereas one who has all this crap going on in the background (while in more need of love, perhaps) would not be a good match. I think that the manga-Rei is a better match for Shinji, too (in both cases). Actually, the fangirls will kill me for this, but the EMK (in my opinion) is a lot better than the anime-Kaworu (or at least what little we saw of him -- mostly just some fanservice followed by his sillohuette for 3 minutes and his head popping off); in the show, we had no idea who he really was, or what he really thought -- Shinji, having known Rei, Asuka, Misato, and all these others, somehow is more sentimental towards Kaworu than any of them, and it makes no sense. It's like -- okay, he said he loved Shinji, so what? If I got hit on that hard by someone I hardly knew, I probably would call the police. He said that Shinji deserved love -- but hasn't Misato been saying that for nearly the whole series? The characters were developed quite well in the show, but they were developed much more fully in the manga, and I don't think anyone can deny that -- even though Misato, Kaji, and Asuka got demoted in importance, they still all got a lot more background info (if not straight-out character development) than they did in the show proper (not counting Death & Rebirth and EoE). There are certain upsides to taking 12 years to tell a story like this :P.

[Victorthebattousai]

What drew me to Eva was the chars. That's why I like the Manga so much, I just like how they are developed in it.

Replace "like" with "dislike" throughout and you have the majority opinion.

Manga Asuka is just the shallow perpetually PMS-ing bitch that she superficially appears to be in the anime, with none of the inner conflicts that are brought out in the anime. The misreading of her in the crucial episodes -- the night together in "Dance like you both want to Win"; the replacement for the kiss scene of "secrets and lies"; even her mind-rape -- is pretty painful to behold. And the replacement for SFAiBL is just a joke.

It is so blatantly obvious from his work elsewhere that Sadamoto has taken a handful of the blue pills, and has tried to write the manga in the main as if this unsuitable interloper had not arrived on the scene. Unfortunately for him, this is not Eureka Seven.

To be honest, I've never cared about the majority opinion. I like what I like. You or anyone else have a problem? Get over it. I've tried to be nice about this, but it seems you're all gonna be cranky about it. Not everyone likes the same thing.

[UrsusArctos]

Relax, dude. Like you yourself said, not everyone has the same opinion, and the majority here have the same opinion as Tines (who has not been cranky in the least).

Everyone's been contradicting you for the simple reason that they think otherwise. They don't agree with your opinion on one point? Big deal- your opinions on the Manga are your own. Forget it. Although, in future, if you don't find your opinions shared by many people, don't try to push them too far. People do have their reasons to go against your opinion and if they don't like it, they'll respond more strongly, and some of them may get nasty.