Naysayers and not wanting to go there

[Sailor Star Dust]

I've been noticing a trend over when it comes to things that aren't explicitly stated in Eva.

Whether it's about the Ritsuko got raped theory, Asuka and Misato having a sexual interest in Shinji, the passage of time in EoE, or hell, even something like the CI from the Eva2 game, it seems that fans in the fold are denying theories about whatever the issue is as not being the case. I know this has always happened, but with Rebuild being around I've noticed a lot more nay-sayers about issues out there.

Is it just because people want to see Eva as being individual interpretation (so their arguments won't be shot down and or because that's what makes the most sense to them) only? Or just any information added down the road is simply retcon instead of actual fact? I guess with issues like Rei and Shinji being related because of Yui or Misato trying to get into Shinji's pants, people "just don't want to go there" with uncomfortable issues or simply having a naive why of looking at things. My question is why?

It's just beyond me why trying to explain what the hell's happening in Eva is seen as "fanwanking" (or why fanwanking has to be considered such a dirty word, considering all that's being done is using information from the series to back up certain points) when some of the theories out there for things really make the most sense logically.

Case in point: Ritsuko getting raped by Seele's goons in episode 23 so she'll spill the beans about Gendo. Also, Shinji dunking his head in the lake at the start of EoE (which mirrors Asuka's suicide attempt in 24' ).

So...thoughts?

[IrkenEvangelion]

I think people want to be right about their opinions. So they argue and argue about them, which is not a bad thing, that's how we learn stuff. But it just seems that people want to be right about whatever the topic may be. And if they don't know enough they're better of not debating stuff they don't fully understand.

EDIT: Another thing I think it's about is maturity. Like in health class when you're in like 5th grade and the teacher says "penis" and everyone bursts out laughing. It is definitely something about being able to discuss stuff like that on an adult level.

[Mr. Tines]

In a lot of cases, I would guess the reason being personal discomfort at the subject being inferred from the evidence -- rape, incest and paedophilia touch hot buttons. Meanwhile, other people just go to 4chan for that sort of thing ("Onii-chan!" ).

For me, the only sticking point is the Misato/Shinji in 23 -- because with that interpretation the later "adult kiss" scene in EoE is robbed of all sense or meaning by the premature detonation of the Big Irony Bomb.

[Formless One]

Depending on the kind of argument, you really can't dismiss a personal opinion.

But if something is a technical debate (such as trying to understand the various phenomina in the show, or figuring out what unseen events in the show actually happened i.e. Ritsuko being raped) then opinions are irrelivent, even the writers intentions are irrelivant. They didn't mean to show some of these things, but suspension of disbelief means assuming it happened, deal with it.

A literary argument means trying to figure out what Anno meant for Eva to mean, and what it means to the veiwer. These arguments are where the opinions of the debaters are important.

But because what the writers meant for different events to mean or the symbolism behind the phenomina do not always come out the way the writers meant them to, these two types of debates are mutually exclusive.

It seems some people need to learn this. When you suspend disbelief, characters can be wrong in what they are saying, the visuals have the final say, and symbolism has about as much meaning to us as it has to the characters in the show.

People who can't accept this style of debate might not like the conclusions because they might not fit with their "interpretations". Especially when social hot buttons are involved, like sex or religion. TOO BAD.

Thats my take on the problem. Eva fans have trouble differentiating between a literary debate and a technical one because Eva has so much going for it in the literary dept..

So please, people, keep the two debates separate.

[Sailor Star Dust]

In reply to Tines post: I guess with issues like whether or not Shinji was alone for an undisclosed amount of time before EoE's final scene, people just don't feel there's enough evidence backing that up then? Or maybe complete isolation is just another uncomfortable issue for some?

FormlessOne: Good point, although it's happened with Eva debates where the two separate debates are intertwined in some way.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

It's not supposed to make sense Tines. Misato wasn't thinking clearly by that point in the game. She's trying to get him to buy into her misguided crusade. Delusional thinking is delusional.

I guess with issues like whether or not Shinji was alone for an undisclosed amount of time before EoE's final scene, people just don't feel there's enough evidence backing that up then?

Oh no, they can't argue that anymore. There is onscreen proof it happened. Naysayers need to GTFO on that one.

[NAveryW]

The only naysaying I do is when I feel there just isn't enough evidence. There have just been to many DotS-type occurrences that seem backed up by a lot of evidence, but turn out to be contradicted by something else.

The head dunking, for example, is possible, but since it was quite hot outside and drowning is one of the most horrible modes of death (and pretty impossible to make yourself go through with just by standing at the edge of the water), the heat could easily account for Shinji's drippiness.

I conceded to Ritsuko's rape, as the alternative seemed impossible after I read the related thread. The same can't be said about other things, though.

[Formless One]

FormlessOne: Good point, although it's happened with Eva debates where the two separate debates are intertwined in some way.

So? That means we should be clear about what type of debate to use on that topic first, because they are mutually exclusive ways of thinking. Ever heard of the Stolen Concept fallacy?

You see, the two argument types boil down to whether we recognize the fact that the events in the show are fiction, or we choose to suspend disbelief and treat it as if they actually happened sometime in the past. Sound mutually exclusive enough for you?

If we can't differentiate the two, arguments are inevitable.

And if a topic goes between the two, have two debates! See how different they come out! This will certainly say more about Eva than anything else we can do!

[chee]

Because sometimes there just isn't enough evidence. It's not always a case of not wanting to go there, many times it's mere incredulity.

[Synapsid]

Because sometimes there just isn't enough evidence. It's not always a case of not wanting to go there, many times it's mere incredulity.

Seeing as how much of the plot is built on circumstantial evidence and context; I would say that not only is it reasonable to “Fanwank” but also what Anno expected out of the audience! The series particularly in the later episodes and were intentionally designed to provoke thought. The context may be ambiguous, and many theories may be wrong but guessing and conjectures are part of the process of comprehending pieces of the puzzle left behind by the master artist.

[NemZ]

fanwanking is practically required on some level to make any sense out of this show, and is, in any case, the primary purpose I see for this forum. ...well, that and generally just having a good time.

@SSD:

Funny, I'm actually working on my first eva fanfic at the moment dealing specifically with Shinji's lost time and all the delicious suffering he endures all by his lonesome. It takes him 6 pages to even reach the shoreline... mwahahaha!

[Formless One]

The problem with Fanwanking is the name. To come up with a working theory that is self consistent in the absence of evidence is a required skill for fanfic writers.

But IRL, if you call someone a wanker, they know its an insult and will treat it as such.

In other forums where I lurk exclusively, "fanwanking" means something completely different. It means you pulled something out of your ass when there is evidence, with the purpose of making something cooler, better, more powerful in a crossover, or just more sutable to your tastes than it really is based off the evidence. Occasionally, its introducing something that doesn't even exist in a fictional universe just to make things cooler or better, even though there is no evidence to say it should exist at all in that universe. Same thing really.

In other words, "wanking your ego" by making something in a universe something its not.

Thats the key: I suspect that they are not the only people that understand fanwanking from that context. It is dishonest, and it isn't what we think fanwank is.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Funny, I'm actually working on my first eva fanfic at the moment dealing specifically with Shinji's lost time and all the delicious suffering he endures all by his lonesome. It takes him 6 pages to even reach the shoreline... mwahahaha!

You're sick...

[V]

I am personally of the opinion, that there is a "silent majority" of Eva fans, aka "people who just saw Eva on Adult Swim" or "just casually bought the DVD", and never come online at all. And that are scared of coming online, because the original online fanbase fragmented so much. And that people "from Eva fansites" NOW are but the smallest fraction of "Eva fandom"

I do not believe that Evangelion is inherently incomprehensible: I think it is indeed understandable.

The problem is....Evangelion is a really deep series, on the thematic level of The Matrix trilogy or the Lord of the Rings.

But it started out as really a children's/teenagers' cartoon show. So the overwhelming original (1990's) fanbase wasn't exactly holding PhD's.

To put it bluntly, I think all of the Rei/Asuka porn scared off a lot of the more "serious" analysts a long time ago, long time ago.

"Fanwanking" is an overused term.

In Lord of the Rings, we do have "logical deductions based on evidence" because even Tolkien himself would acknowledge and base new things on fan theories i.e. "how the heck did New World crops like Tobacco get to Middle-earth?" so he had to come up with an explanation.

I've read AICN's older Eva reviews and it appears that quite literally, and old "game" or "half of the fun of" Eva in the late 90's was not trying to answer the questions but actually trying to come up with the intentionally CRAZIEST answer possible.

I don't even consider there to be one continuous Eva fandom, btw, it comes in waves based on release or when people "burn out". I.e. "Eva Monkey", "Eva Commentary", "AnimeNationForums" and all associated with it are "2nd Generation" Eva fandom: that is, in Aaron's own words, he saw that lots of the *original* Eva fansites were shutting down or dying out, so he saved as much as he could, and created Evamonkey in 2003, just as most of "Teh Movers and Shakers" that are still online now, met on ANF forums in 2003ish. The "1st generation" being the fansites and forums from when it was originally airing in Japan, and thus in North America, it was people who were getting illegal fansubs, of....varying translation quality; you know the "golden days of yore" in which people watched Evangelion by hunting around at conventions to buy bootleg fansubs on VHS tapes, one at a time. Everything through when the Eva movies came out in Japan, and waning a bit through the early ADV VHS releases. The finalized release of Platinum and the movies in English, circa 2002-3ish, and the formation of the current....cartel, is what marked the "2nd Generation". That is, 1st gen was "comparing Japanese bootlegs purely on our own" to 2nd Gen's "We do have a VHS translation by ADV Films in English but there's problems with it, and wait a minute, did shots get changed around a little in this new thing called "Platinum"? etc. etc.

[IrkenEvangelion]

The should be on the EvaPedia, the history of how we got to where we are now.

[Formless One]

^ Seconded.

[NemZ]

TANGENT ALERT!

You're sick...

lol!

But seriously it is more than just psychologically kicking Shinji's ass for an entire fic. I do have a point I'm trying to explore along the way while trying out some rather experimental writing techniques to get across the experience of his deteriorating sanity in 1st person present tense.

So far it's quite unlike any other post-impact fic I've come across, though if that's a good thing I will have to leave up to eventual readers to judge.

/TANGENT

Yes, very interesting post there, V! I second the evapaedia nod.

[Sailor Star Dust]

I believe something like that already is (or will be) on the Evapeida at some point. I think...

[Sachi]

I believe the moral messages should be self-interpretation, but things that may or may not have actually happened in Eva (Such as Ritsuko being raped) either happened or they didn't.

[Dartz]

There is something eminently disturbing, extremely disheartening, and mildly annoying when you try and make a point and get linked to year and a half old posts debunking everything you could possibly say.

Everything has been discussed before...

I'll fanwank on my own tangents thank you very much, regardless of whatever the established consensus is, a firm believer in Occams razor, and the significant possibility that there's all a much simpler explanation underneath the whole lot. I go with what seems obvious too me, rather than analyzing pointlessly deep.

There comes a point where your probably gone way past what the creator had in mind, and end up delving into things they probably never even thought about it. With Ranma, that's an easy thing to do.... in fact the creator even pointed out she didnt think about some things, and neither should the fans.

Knowing the point in NGE where you've gone to deep is much harder... and usually comes about the time you pull back from your PC screen because your dog is nipping your leg with the hunger and you tell Asuka to fuck off....