EVA-00's Soul

[beholderseye]

"Rei's personality was transfered,
although the human mind and spirit are not digitalizable. "

I think this refers to the fact that to transfer a soul, they'd need to digitalize it first. I dont think its possible to digitalize a soul, as they said, and therefor.. transfering it was impossible.

Hey, I'd stay.. but I'm going watch Eva platinum ;)

[Phaze]

This is why I'm going to once again, insist on my own theory (not to sound pompous) the idea that Rei can transfer her own soul into unit-00 makes perfect sense on all accounts, not to mention that Rei I and Rei II were in possession of the same soul at one point or another.

[Olin of Xephon]

But if Rei's soul inhabits unit-00, what about the second time it went berserk? (blue unit-00)

The only person the Eva seemed to be attacking was Rei herself.
Why would Rei try to kill Rei with a eva Shinji is currently piloting?
To much of a stretch for me.

[sadsadshinji]

i believe there was another topic on this...and the conclusion was that Rei can project her soul like kaworu so the lack of soul, or the taking over of the soul might have caused the beserk incidents

[Reichu]

I've had tons of debates about EVA-00's soul and all of the related insanity in the past couple of years. As such, a lot of the arguments here sound very familiar, because I made them myself at some point! (Most of it actually occurred in a long, drawn-out debate with MDWigs at Anime Boards. A very interesting thread that covered a LOT of points, so it's rather upsetting that I have no idea what happened to it... It would be a great thing to link to here.) I was once a Naoko advocate myself, but if you look at NGE in whole, this theory JUST DOESN'T WORK. The only real option is Rei-001 -- the soul of Lilith, the mind of the human vessel she had been placed within. (Soul and mind are separate yet related concepts in NGE.)

To save myself some trouble, here is a thread at another forum that really helped to eliminate the doubt in my mind that Rei 1 is the soul of Zerogouki. (Scroll more than halfway down. The post is by Shin-seiki and it has tons of screencaps.) The evidence is there, right in the show itself.

I can't possibly cover all of the points brought up on this thread right now, but here are a couple of things:

1) The Eva's A.T. Field does not come from the pilot. The very reason Evas need souls to function is because the A.T. Field is so integral -- without one, an Eva is pretty worthless. If the pilot's own A.T. Field could be utilized and "amplified" by the Eva, why give Evas souls in the first place? Theoretically, GEHIRN could have developed soulless Evas that could be piloted directly via control of the nervous system (which is basically how the actual Evas are piloted, except that synchronization with the resident soul is first required). Yet this didn't happen. Evas need a resident soul to work.

2) The main problem people (including myself, at one point) have with the Rei-1-in-EVA-00 theory is "But Lilith's soul is in Rei-2; how can it be in two places at the same time?" One very important thing to realize about Lilith's soul is that CAN be in multiple places at the same time, and one needs to look no further than EoE for proof of this. Rei is literally in BILLIONS of places simultaneously, and there is also reason to think that she can transcend not only place, but time as well. (A very complicated issue if ever there was one.)

But that, actually, probably does not have much relevance to the EVA-00 matter. The answer may simply lie in the soul imprint theory, which was originally proposed by MDWigs (I believe), and I have been working on a revision of this with my friend Dr. Nick. Incidentally, no one will get to hear the whole thing until next year, as Dr. Nick's left for his 6-month mandatory military service in July. But he never said I couldn't mention the idea to others in the meantime.

The gist of the theory is that there is some component of the soul that CAN be technologically copied, enough to generate an A.T. Field -- but, of course, the copy is second-rate, and there are definitely psychological ramifications. (As a result, transferring a real, complete soul from one vessel to another is preferable.) According to the theory, this may actually have been GEHIRN's original intended method of making the Evas functional -- why sacrifice a human soul when you can just copy the part that you need? (Yui's incident may thusly have been viewed as a "freak accident" precisely because transferring her entire soul was not what GEHIRN intended. Yui's intentions are, of course, a whole 'nother matter.)

The first time (again, as per the theory) a "soul copy" was successful was with Rei 1 and EVA-00. Rei 1 kept her soul intact, and EVA-00 got a cheap copy (an "imprint"), which turned out the be enough for her to generate an A.T. Field and synchronize with her "donor" (and subsequent incarnations thereof). Of course, the imprint wasn't quite enough for psychological soundness of mind (see: Zero's temper tantrums).

The second time was in the Third Branch in Germany, with none other than Soryu Kyoko Zeppelin (Asuka's mama). Not intent on repeating Yui's incident, they may have desired to try an improved version of the soul imprint. Whatever the case, EVA-02 sucked Kyoko's soul out and KYOKO was the one left with the imprint, which is why her body remained but her mind was in increasingly bad shape after the Contact Experiment.

Another theory is that the Eva Series all contain soul imprints of Adam, which goes a long way towards explaining (A) why they are generally inferior to Evas like 01 and 02 and (B) why they are all ****ed-up mother-****ers. There's also the whole bit about them being controlled by Kaworu's dummy plug, but I don't think it's been satisfactorily demonstrated that there needs to be the same link between Eva's soul and controlling agent (in this case, the dummy plug) as there is with traditional piloting.

Food for thought, anyway. Pardon the length.

[MDWigs]

The AB thread Reichu mentioned can be found here:

http://www.animeboards.com/showthread.php?t=52521

You still have to reply to my last post Reichu!!

On the Eva-00 issue itself, I have been planning on writing a comprehensive logical proof on the issue for a while now. I started talking about it again on the Eva ML recently but then up and backpacked around Europe for a couple of months, which put a big dent in my plans to actually write anything conclusive (I am off to Edinburgh tomorrow to catch the last of the Fringe Festival if anyone is interesting, and then sometime mid-September I should be back posting as normal).

Anyway in this proof I aim to demonstrate that the issue of how exactly Rei's soul came to be in Eva-00 is secondary, and that, if starting from the simple assumption that it is indeed Rei's soul in there, a great number of Eva "mysteries" can be explained. Basically I intend to show that the Rei explanation fits the facts of the series better than any other. The issue of then demonstrating how exactly Rei can be in Eva-00 becomes a less important issue (but no less fun to discuss).

All that will have to wait till September though. I got back from Amecon (UK's largest anime festival) this afternoon and I am totally beat. UK con's consist of much drinking and partying, with two bars right outside the two main viewing rooms things got quite interesting. I haven't slept since Saturday night, so now I am going to sleep!

[Reichu]

The AB thread Reichu mentioned can be found here:

http://www.animeboards.com/showthread.php?t=52521

You still have to reply to my last post Reichu!!

Wow, I'm glad it DOES still exist, after all! Thanks for the link, Wigs. Replying to your last post would be a little problematic, since my thinking has come a LONNNNG way since we had that discussion. But it might be a fun thing to resurrect... whenever you have the time to reply, that is!

As I mentioned before, Dr. Nick has some very interesting ideas regarding the technicalities of soul "imprinting" and soul transfers that we had been discussing via e-mail, many of which are based on your original premises. It would probably be worthwhile to have a nice, BIG discussion about this issue on ANF when Dr. Nick returns from the service next year... Methinks there will be plenty of other stuff to keep you busy in the meantime. ;)

[thewayneiac]

Tobias wrote:

but I'm still leaning toward the Naoko side. Why? Because the other souls are mothers, just like Akagi was.

but Shinji and Asuka both had their own mothers in their EVAs; Naoko may be a mother, but she isn't Rei's mother. It would only make sense to put Naoko into Unit 00 if Ritsuko were going to be its pilot, and she's the wrong age.

I think that the idea probably is that as Rei has no mother, an alternate version of herself is the closest they are going to get.
Phaze wrote:

This is why I'm going to once again, insist on my own theory (not to sound pompous) the idea that Rei can transfer her own soul into unit-00 makes perfect sense on all accounts, not to mention that Rei I and Rei II were in possession of the same soul at one point or another.

When Shinji sees Rei 01's soul in Unit 00, is Rei 02 somehow projecting it even though she isn't in the pilot's seat at that time?

Quiddity wrote:

Naoko? Well she strangled Rei then immediately killed herself. Without official evidence, only thoughts because she hated Rei as Unit 00 seemed to, I wouldn't put too much faith in it, as of now.

Exactly. Besides, they would have know that Naoko killed Rei I; why use a soul that hates its pilot?

Over at the Anime Nation forum there's a fellow named Shin-Seiki who always points out that Anno doesn't try to trick us; he just shows what's happening, and let's us decide what it all means. If Anno shows us Rei I's soul in Unit 00, it means that Rei I is Unit 00's indwelling soul.

[aranami]

Tobias wrote:

but I'm still leaning toward the Naoko side. Why? Because the other souls are mothers, just like Akagi was.

but Shinji and Asuka both had their own mothers in their EVAs; Naoko may be a mother, but she isn't Rei's mother. It would only make sense to put Naoko into Unit 00 if Ritsuko were going to be its pilot, and she's the wrong age.

I think that the idea probably is that as Rei has no mother, an alternate version of herself is the closest they are going to get.

In that case it's not so much their mother, but there closest relation, someone who would look after the pilots. In Shinji's and Asuka's case yes it was their mothers. For Rei the closest they could get was Rei I.
on a side note(then again mabye it wasn't the souls who where picked but the pilots were picked because of their relation to the soul that the Eva traped)

This leaves Unit-00 with an incomplete soul. It is simalar to the episode in Inu-Yasha when the demon resurrected Kykio. At the end of the episode both Kykio and Kagome had pieces of the same soul. If Unit-00 had Rei I's soul then part of it would of had to be put into the Eva and part into Rei II(This also explains why Rei I and Rei II's personality's were so different and why II and III where more identical). The activation test was simalar to someone with a split personality fighting with themselves. I don't think that the Eva knew what it was attaking. It was trying to get the rest of Rei's soul, and Rei was fighting back.

[Zuggy]

If we're going to rehash the Eva-00 debate, please bump one of the older threads.

Why are there so few topics on this?! There's this thread but it was locked.

Following on from this thread then:

We know the souls inside each Eva...

00: Rei I

We don't know that Rei I's soul is in Eva-00.

We don't know that Rei I's soul is in Eva-00.

Actually, we do know that; you seem, amazingly enough, to have found some way to discount all the evidence that points that way ('Bug-eyed, floating head Rei' being identified as Rei 1 in #25 is particularly definitive), but most all of the rest of us understand that the issue is basically resolved, and carry on from there...

('Bug-eyed, floating head Rei' being identified as Rei 1 in #25 is particularly definitive)

Stock footage much?

Not that the hive mind cares what I think.

Actually, we do know that; you seem, amazingly enough, to have found some way to discount all the evidence that points that way ('Bug-eyed, floating head Rei' being identified as Rei 1 in #25 is particularly definitive), but most all of the rest of us understand that the issue is basically resolved, and carry on from there...

This is taking place during the interchangeability tests, where Rei is in Eva-01 and Shinji is in Eva-00 - during episode #14.

Shinji sees Rei while in Eva-00 - using your logic this means that one of the Rei's souls is in Eva-00, fair enough.

Now apply that logic to what Rei sees while in Eva-01 just before, Rei sees herself, Shinji, Misato, Ritsuko, Toji, Kensuke, Asuka, and Gendo, amongst all kinds of other imagery - does that mean all those folk's souls are in Eva-01? No.

As I've said before, both pilots are merely coming into contact with the impressions inside each Eva, NOT the resident souls - also, the imagery of "bug-eyed Rei" doesn't match up with when Shinji or Asuka come into actual contact with the souls in their Evas at all.

[Ornette]

This is taking place during the interchangeability tests, where Rei is in Eva-01 and Shinji is in Eva-00 - during episode #14.

Shinji sees Rei while in Eva-00 - using your logic this means that one of the Rei's souls is in Eva-00, fair enough.

Now apply that logic to what Rei sees while in Eva-01 just before, Rei sees herself, Shinji, Misato, Ritsuko, Toji, Kensuke, Asuka, and Gendo, amongst all kinds of other imagery - does that mean all those folk's souls are in Eva-01? No.

However, unlike what Rei was seeing (or daydreaming) while inside Eva-01, Shinji had his mind invaded by the Eva.

Shinji (MONO):
What is this?
Something's trying to get directly into my brain.
Ayanami?
Rei Ayanami?
This impression is Rei Ayanami, isn't it?
Ayanami?
Isn't it her?

IBUKI:
Mental contamination is taking place.

RITSUKO:
Impossible! That can't happen at this plug depth.

IBUKI (OFF):
It's not from the plug.
The intrusion's coming from the Eva.

Therefore, what Rei was seeing (daydreaming) while inside Eva-01 cannot be compared to what Shinji sees.

[Semisubtle]

What about the first time EVA 00 goes berserk, then? Rei herself was piloting, so why'd she freak out like that?

[Ornette]

What about the first time EVA 00 goes berserk, then? Rei herself was piloting, so why'd she freak out like that?

You mean why Eva-00 freaked out?

Misato (OFF):
So, what caused the accident during the last experiment?

RITSUKO (OFF):
We still don't know.
However, we believe that mental instability on the part of the pilot
was a primary cause.

Misato (OFF):
Mental instability? In Rei?

RITSUKO (OFF):
Yes, her mind became much more disturbed than we had anticipated.

Misato (OFF):
So, what happened?

RITSUKO (OFF):
I don't know.
But could it be...

Misato (OFF):
Did something occur to you?

RITSUKO (OFF):
No, that can't be it.

Clearly, the mental stability is just an excuse because they really don't know why. The only hint we get is Ritsuko's last 2 lines.

Whatever reason it was, it's probably a different reason than the second time Eva-00 went berserk. The second time, it was clear what was going on, the first time, Ritsuko doesn't know. If she did know this would happen, why would they put Shinji in Eva-00 in the first place?

[Zuggy]

However, unlike what Rei was seeing (or daydreaming) while inside Eva-01, Shinji had his mind invaded by the Eva.

Nice point, while Shinji's mind is invaded to the extent that mental contamination occurs both pilots do share similar experiences while in the plug. Both can smell each other. Both are making contact with the Eva (depending if you interpret Rei's line "I feel a presence that is not my own" as her referring to Yui) - there's no reason to think that Rei is merely daydreaming while synched with Eva-01, so I don't see where you're coming from with that bit.

[Ornette]

Nice point, while Shinji's mind is invaded to the extent that mental contamination occurs both pilots do share similar experiences while in the plug. Both can smell each other. Both are making contact with the Eva (depending if you interpret Rei's line "I feel a presence that is not my own" as her referring to Yui) - there's no reason to think that Rei is merely daydreaming while synched with Eva-01, so I don't see where you're coming from with that bit.

Rei says "It smells like Ikari" after synchronization, however, Shinji says it smells like Ayanami BEFORE activation occurs. This tells me that this smell doesn't have anything to do with the Eva itself, but, like many have said, some kind of residual scent left from the previous pilot.

Maybe daydreaming isn't the right word, but what I meant by that is she's thinking about it, and it has nothing to do with the Eva, with the possible exception of the "Who are you".

She is saying all of this stuff while she's in the entry plug:

Rei'S VOICE:
Mountain...
Heavy mountains.
Things that change over time.
Sky...
Blue sky.
What your eyes can't see.
What your eyes can see.
Sun...
A unique object.
Water...
Something comforting.
Commander Ikari?
Flowers...
So many of the same.
And so many unneeded.
Sky...
Red, red sky.
The color red.
I hate the color red.
Water flowing.
Blood...
The smell of blood.
A woman who never bleeds.
Man made from red soil.
Man made from man and woman.
City... A human creation.
Eva... A human creation.
What is a human? A creation of God?
Is man a human creation?
The things I possess are life and soul.
I am a vessel for a soul.
Entry plug, the throne for a soul.
Who is this? This is me.
Who am I? What am I? What am I?
What am I? What am I?
I am myself.
This object is me.
The form that shapes me.
This is the me that can be seen,
yet I feel as though I am not myself.
Very strange.
I feel as if my body is melting.
I can no longer see myself.
My shape is fading.
I feel the presence of someone who is not me.
Is someone there, beyond this?
Ikari?
I know this person. Major Katsuragi.
Doctor Akagi.
Everyone.
Classmates. Note: this is where Toji and Kensuke and the others show up
The pilot of Unit 02.
Commander Ikari?
Who are you?
Who are you?
Who are you?

[Shiro]

What about in Episode 23('?)

Is this me? The me inside the Eva?

I'd say that's pretty clear in saying Rei's soul inside 00. It doesn't make sense except when in that context.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Maybe daydreaming isn't the right word, but what I meant by that is she's thinking about it, and it has nothing to do with the Eva, with the possible exception of the "Who are you".

While I agree that Rei I's soul is in Zero, I'm not so sure Rei's "daydream" has nothing to do with Sho. Most all of Shinji's "mind wanderings" are also while inside Sho. I've wondered before if Yui was trying to help/guide/aid Shinji, and I don't know if it's a stretch to assume she would be doing the same with Rei.

I'd say that's pretty clear in saying Rei's soul inside 00. It doesn't make sense except when in that context.

IIRC from the debate me and Zug had on ANF, he seems to believe that an imprint of the pilots are left behind in the Evas - similar to how in Instrumentality every character exists in everyone else's mind, so do these people exist in the minds of the Evas. So he thinks Rei seeing herself is merely her seeing the "her" that exists in the mind of Zero.

[Shiro]

But there's really no other evidence for that. Being literally mixed with someone else's mind is different than being synchronized with it. Saying that they leave behind an imprint, and that's what Rei feels in that instance isn't backed by anything. Or else, why hadn't Shinji or Asuka ever commented on it? That's fanwank that's even more extreme then "Rei 1 is in Zerogouki."

[Eva Yojimbo]

That's fanwank that's even more extreme then "Rei 1 is in Zerogouki."

Take it up with Zuggy. :)

[evilhead008]

Naoko HATES Rei.

The End.